1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

This forum is for the Fordson New Major, including the Super Major and the Power Major.
Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Billy26F5 »

Mr. MacGregor's 4/98 suffered from a leaking head gasket and a cracked fuel filter. Other than that he's fine for now.
Sandy
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Jm-baker
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Jm-baker »

shepp wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:14 pm
If you are sure there are no leaks on the vacuum pipes then the air supply side of things checks out. I presume when you had the air cleaner hose off you checked that the venturi in the inlet manifold was opening and closing correctly when the throttle lever was operated?

Did you try SvendH tip of fractionally advancing the timing a bit at a time and see the results?

Injectors are generally very reliable and don't usually give trouble unless they have been overheated and the needles have blued and distorted. I have known injectors give ten or twelve thousand hours or more of service without trouble and still be operating well. If you have had the tractor a long time you will know if it has ever been overheated, and you will know how the white smoke issue developed. Did it start and gradually worsen over time or did it just appear and always be at the level it is? I am just thinking about what a very small split in the governor diaphragm might produce, usually it is uncontrolled engine speed if the split is big enough.

As you will be taking the rocker cover off to remove the injectors, firstly check there are no broken valve springs obvious and then check the valve clearances. If the clearances have tightened up over the years due to wear on the valve faces and seats, it may be that the valves will seat well enough to seal for starting purposes but when the engine is at running speed it may be that the engine is suffering from valve bounce and the valves are not seating properly, this would result in poor combustion and smoke. Stronger valve springs were fitted in 1961 to address issues of valve bounce and smoke at high engine speeds.

If the engine is still smokey after re- setting the valve clearances then proceed to remove the injectors for service. The original nozzles should recondition hopefully, if not new nozzles will be fitted. The last ones I had done cost about £30 each about 4 years ago. There are some specialists who advertise in Tractor & Machinery and Classic Tractor, one is SJ Wilkinson
for Lancashire and Cheshire, my part of the world.

If, after servicing the injectors there is no difference to the smoke then the injection pump will need to be removed for inspection and testing. It may be that the delivery valves are worn and have started to leak back, this will cause smoke, or that the phasing is out which will also cause smoke. The diesel injection service centre will test everything, recondition and replace worn parts where necessary and recalibrate and re-set the phasing of the pump.

Keep us all informed.
Back onto this problem, still unsolved. Thanks for the suggestions.

The tractor starts and runs well, fires right up, clean oil and water, just this smoke!

To date i have:
  • Flushed fuel system, new filters.
  • Slackened off each injector whilst running, not related to a single cylinder.
  • Checked air inlet,
  • Removed inlet hose,
  • Checked vauum pipes,
  • Checked timing many times
  • Set valve clearances,
  • Injectors serviced.
So now i am down to:
  • Try adjusting pump timing either side to see if it improves,
  • Check pump vacuum diampragm,
Ive noted:
  • Injector leak off pipe was removed in the past and plugged off. Been like it for 30+ years. Will re-instate, didnt use to smoke so assume unrelated.
  • Injector pump recently had stuck and stopped pumping, its not in great condition, input shaft play feels like bearing wear.
Any other ideas welcome. I hear a lot that Majors need to be worked hard, i dont have any means to work it hard for a day, what is the cauase of them needing hard work, carbon buildup?

Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Billy26F5 »

I think you've just answered your own question. If you haven't done any hard work the smoke will always come and you'll only get rid of it by doing something like ploughing. If the engine isn't run hard the temperature of each part will be a bit below design, so the parts won't quite be the right shape, this apart from other problems causes significant carboning, which on other engines like those in locomotives can even catch fire in the exhaust. This is a general problem for Diesel engines, and lots of engines are very often in trouble.
Notice in these two pics of Billy the difference from a few minutes ploughing after many days of doing light jobs (note the acute lack of water causing lots of dust):
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And for anyone wanting the extreme version of smoke see this (not mine, nor is it a Fordson, quite a noisy one):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKUdTDV ... PhilMackin
Sandy
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Jm-baker
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Jm-baker »

Thanks Sandy.

Im still open to the "needs hard work".
The thing i find hard to accept is that for many years it never had this problem, many Majors dont get any hard use,just show tractors, and they dont bellow smoke like mine, something feels up.

Today i checked the pump diaphagm, i took the two pipes off the top of the housing and when i operate the excess fuel, place fingers over "both" holes, then release the excess fuel, it holds, releasing fingers and you hear it slide back, so i think thats a pass?

I adjusted the timing both ways a little, no difference, the coupling is very worn so will repalce that for the sake of it next.

I also fitted a new injector drain off pipe that was missing.

Its still bellowing smoke. I noted watching the exhuast, it comes in puffs at high idle. See video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MER7KTOrbAk

I did note something that may be of significance when setting the valve clearances, on one cylinder when turning over by hand, on the compression stroke, i heard air passing, i assume a valve passing. It was quite noticable.
Loosening that cylingder injector doesnt stop the smoke, so i couldnt see it being a cause, but i wonder if other valves are passing just not so bad. Is a compression test hard to setup?

Ideas again welcomed.

Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Billy26F5 »

It does look unusually smokey, and the air leak doesn't sound great, but you really need to see how it reacts to hard work. I would quite like to hear the engine a bit better at different speeds and loads if you wouldn't mind, as at least one of those puffs seemed to make a bit of noise. What does the smoke smell of? The coupling looks no different to Billy's and it would be more likely to cause other problems if it really is too worn. The governor sounds very good. That smoke is definitely not different from one cylinder to another, as if it was you would be able to detect the engine cycle in the exhaust sound. The compression test is simple enough, but I would eliminate other possible causes before doing it. Wear in injector pump bearings is unlikely to cause this, you're more likely to find that you loose power until the engine will eventually refuse to start cold. I wouldn't think you're at that stage yet, but that doesn't mean it's not worth sorting. Have you cleaned the governor air filter? It's well worth doing. Generally fuel system problems will cause black smoke, that you don't have. Try some hard work and see what happens, you could be surprised by how quickly the smoke clears.
Sandy
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John b
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by John b »

Try some hard work as Sandy says, but if that doesn't cure it my money is on bearings and rusted/worn cam lobes and rollers in the bottom of the pump. Especially as you say it had siezed up and the pig tail pipe was missing, sounds like water or condensation has got in and wrecked the pump, it has killed more Simms pumps than anything else and I did a Major with exactly the same symptoms and a replacement pump sorted it. Once the cam lobes, rollers and bearings in the pump get rust on them they will wear very quickly, combine that wear with the play in the front and rear bearings and the pump settings are way out
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

shepp
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by shepp »

I think John is right, the finger points to the injection pump, I said previously that if after testing everything else the problem remains then the injection pump is the likely cause. If the pump has worn bearings and cam followers and a worn camshaft the phasing of the pump will be way out, and even if the timing is set bang on for number 1 cylinder it will be way off for the other three cylinders, and will probably constantly vary as the engine is running. A contributor from the USA had the same smoke issue a year or two ago, in his case he had fitted a "reconditioned pump " from a well known local diesel injection firm, however the phasing of the pump turned out to be way off the mark, causing the white smoke. He fitted a good used pump, which cured it, then sent the so called reconditioned pump to another firm and they confirmed that the pump was badly set up and out of phase.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Billy26F5 »

What James is missing is the injector leak off line from the head to the fuel tank, the pig tail (in another pic elsewhere) is as far as I can see as it should be, but an inspection would do no harm.
I must say that it doesn't sound like the phasing is out, there's no pronounced rough running (which would be expected from one cylinder not firing at the right time if the others are), but that's all I can say from the very short video James posted. Some more and longer videos, preferrably under load would certainly help uncover the problem.
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Jm-baker »

Well a quick update.

Fuel pump coupling broke last week, made a terrible noise.

Have removed the pump, feels rough, going to have it looked it. Maybe the pump was on its way out after all.

Interesting when i took the pump off, the keyway slot is not as i would expect. Take a look.

Key is also damaged, possibly from age or when the pump just died (it feels like its almos seized to me, very gauly).

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shepp
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by shepp »

With a key and keyway worn as badly as that the injection timing will have been jumping about all over the place when the engine was running! You will have to locate a good used drive shaft with an unworn keyway, a new or good used key and pump coupling as well as having the pump checked whilst everything is stripped down. A fair sized strip down job!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Billy26F5 »

What wear you have there. Looks like the clamp bolt wasn't tight enough. Fixing that is a pretty big job. I'd quite like to see what the coupling looks like, also see how the pump turns, as it will be a bit tight when lifting a plunger, it will spring ahead when a plunger goes down. Fixing the pump is not the easiest of jobs but it's not too difficult provided you keep it totally clean at all times and have access to suitable equipment for phasing and calibrating before refitting the pump. Spares should be obtainable from https://injectionpumps.co.uk or similar places. Don't use the pump until phased and calibrated.
Sandy
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Jm-baker
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Jm-baker »

The clamp bolt was tight, no play before taking it off.

I think this is an old shaft damage, probably from when they replaced the pump (Over 40 years ago at some point it had an earlier pump fitted).

Pump doesnt feel good at all, will drop it off this week and get it looked at.

Have a new complete coupling. Will get a new key as well.
Shaft may be a problem, will see what can be done. Or it will have to come out.....

Coupling, keyway was fine:

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Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Billy26F5 »

Is it only the fibre drive pad that failed? If so don't replace the rest of the coupling, as it should be fine (the adjuster certaily seems to be). Looks like someone has had trouble with that shaft before, as that keyway is definitely not in original condition (it should be a uniform 5/32" thick, the key should be too).
Sandy
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Jm-baker
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Jm-baker »

Yes just the pad failed, but for many years the coupoling has had a pieve missing, can just see it in the photo above, the slot for one clamp bolt has broken away, another bodge, it worked fine but as im replacing the pad will repalce the coupling.

Agree, it appears to be old damage. Almost certain it will be from before we acquired the tractor as its never been off in almost 40 years of ownership.

Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Billy26F5 »

I don't see any particular damage to that adjuster, the clamp bolt side does have a slot (about 3/32" I reckon) so that the bolt can get the adjuster gripping positively on the auxiliary shaft and avoid the sort of wear to the key and keyway that yours has. Note repro flanges are not the same as the original ones. Also, if the pump flange is removed the pump phasing will need to be checked again and a timing mark scribed on the new flange.
Sandy
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Jm-baker »

The bottom slot is no longer a slot, it is half missing, not clear in photo...

Jm-baker
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Jm-baker »

So i took the pump for refurb and it is a mess.

Bearing collapsed, hence the coupling pad breaking as the pump basically locked up.

He can rebuild it, but.... the lobes on the camshaft are quite badly pitted and no replacement is avaialble, so it would just be polised up.
And the follower rollers are no longer avaialbe and they have some wear, so it wouldnt be a long term refurb which i dont like and its £400+vat, so looking at options.

Hopefully this wear and bearing failuer explain the smoking.... im looking forward to getting a good pump on it!

Anyone know where to look for a SPE4A70S296 ?

Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Billy26F5 »

I wouldn't get a 296. I would try and find the right pump, more like one of the ones in those engines on ebay. The pump no. should be between 39001 and 52205, that would be what your tractor should have. The 380 would really be closer, but it's not a 380 either.
Sandy
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Jm-baker
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Jm-baker »

Thanks, see other post on pump identification. I think the 296 ran later than 39001.

Very hard to find any info on pump numbers.

I agree, would be good to get the correct pump for my engine #.

shepp
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by shepp »

Cam followers or rollers are shown in stock by injectionpumps.co.uk although camshafts are shown as currently out of stock. As far as I am aware camshafts and all other parts for Simms pumps and injectors are still being made by Spaco in Milan. A diesel specialist in Australia has quite a number of original new old stock camshafts of different types listed on EBay, you would need the relevant Simms part number to know if one was compatible.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Jm-baker
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Jm-baker »

Thank you, will take a look.

Jm-baker
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Jm-baker »

Found a good used pump. Spot on for age and config.

8 bolt cover
Vertical mounted
No pre filter
Early excess fuel lever

SPE 4A 70S 296
Serial #39058

And a good used drive shaft.

Will fit and test after a service on the pump and good check over.

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Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by Billy26F5 »

That's just the kind of pump I would have gone for too, I would never have excpected it to be considered a 296, but we now know! I would suggest you replace the bleed screw as soon as possible to avoid having to battle with this one.
I like the look of both the auxiliary shaft and the pipe, I would check the bearings just in case. If you need new ones the front one is an imperial RLS-7, the rear one is a metric 6204. Having said all this changing the auxiliary shaft is quite a big job.
Sandy
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John b
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Re: 1954 FMD - Time to fix the white smoke!

Post by John b »

Hopefully this will cure the smoking issue. And as I keep saying, use a torque wrench on the front cover bolts (12 ft/lbs I believe) they are very soft and snap off in the block very easily. And yes, I found out the hard way first time I did a Major!
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

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