1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

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Jm-baker
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1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Jm-baker »

Morning all,

Some years back i tried to purchase a new pipe from the fuel filter to pump inlet.
I came across a problem, my pump didnt appear to match the pipe listed for 1954.

Please can someone help confirm if this pump is original to my engine and tractor numbers?
And where might i buy that pipe?

Tractor # 1302950
Engine # 1286920 (Taken from bulkhead plate, not actual engine as cannot read it)
Pump # SPE 4A 70 S296 (see photo)

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Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Billy26F5 »

Your pump appears to be a very early one, with four bolts on the inspection cover and a pre-filter. You'll need to make a pipe from the right length of copper pipe with appropriate olives.
Jm-baker wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:57 am
Tractor # 1302950
Engine # 1286920 (Taken from bulkhead plate, not actual engine as cannot read it)
Where did you find 1302950, and what casting codes do you have? Look for the serial number (equivalent to tractor number and engine number) on the flange behind the starter, if everything is original, the number on the block and the one on the ID plate should be the same. Post plenty of pics as various parts can give a clue of the age as well as see if we can read the number.
Sandy
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shepp
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by shepp »

Up until tractor number1380938 the serial number was stamped on the top of the clutch housing immediately behind the starter motor, there was no number stamped on the engine and the numbers on the clutch housing and the serial number plate should be the same. So where does the number 1302950 come from??

A serial number of 1302950 indicates a July 1954 build date. A serial number of 1286920 indicates a March 1954 build date.

You have a vertically mounted pump with a 4 bolt cover plate. The cover plate was changed to an 8 bolt fitting at pump number 34624, and the pump mounting bracket was changed from a vertical type to one canted by 10 degrees at pump number 52205, both changes in 1954. Check the numbers stamped on your pump.

Pump type SPE 4A 70S 296 is the earliest type of pump fitted to these Mark 1 engines, the later pump used was the SPE 4A 70S 380 with modifications to the governor and fuel rack. Both had 7 mm diameter pumping elements,

As Sandy says it us very likely that you will have to fabricate a fuel line from the filter to the pump. The injector pipes are also different for these early vertically mounted pumps, they are harder to source as well.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Jm-baker
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Jm-baker »

1302950 is in the log book under Chassis Number.
Registered 08/1954.

Just checked and the flange behind the starter is 1286920.
Plate on the battery/engine bulkhead 1286920

Castings seem to read:
Under seat: A22V
Engine C8*V ?
Center housing C16V

Thanks!

shepp
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by shepp »

It must be a "ringer" then, the log book does not apply to the tractor! Is it an old buff RF60 log book you have or a V5C?
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Jm-baker
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Post by Jm-baker »

Well that's caused some confusion! Its on the V5. We dont seem to have the old style book from its original registration.

On the phone to my old man who bought it in the 70's to see what he knows!
He bought it at auction, plated up and registered.

So the conclusion is the pump is most likely original, which is good to know.

Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Billy26F5 »

Looks like it was mis-registered, you'll have to sort that soon.
shepp wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:06 pm
Up until tractor number1380938 the serial number was stamped on the top of the clutch housing immediately behind the starter motor, there was no number stamped on the engine
I said on the block in the sense that the upper front half of the bell housing is cast integrally with the block (I always think of it as a single piece when referring to either portion).
The 380 pump among other changes lacks a pre-filter, with the more available "Z" shaped pipe replacing the original one. Look for the pump number on the cambox.
Your casting codes indicate March 54, the top cover and gearbox strangely matching Billy's ones but a year earlier.
Sandy
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John b
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by John b »

Did the early Simms pump use different length injector pipes or are those home made?
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Billy26F5 »

The early pipes are as in the pic, they were then shortened when the pump was tilted inwards with sharper bends, with the Mk2 all the pipes became equal length and curved, the minimec pipes follow the same principle but are different.
Sandy
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John b
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by John b »

Thanks for clearing that up Sandy, i've never noticed the early pipes before. I think it was more critical on a DPA pump to have all the pipes the same length, although there are some say it doesnt matter
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

shepp
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by shepp »

Sandy, I always regard the clutch housing as the clutch housing or bell housing, but of course you are right on these engines the bell housing is cast as part of the block, and when I say the number is not on the block I mean it is not stamped on the pad under the cylinder head as it is for later engines.

The injector pipes on upright pumps are different to those on pumps inclined by 10 degrees.

There is another topic of conversation - why was the pump inclined by 10 degrees?? Some commentators would say this was to allow the engine to be fitted in the Ford truck models of the day. However, the truck at that time was the ET4 or ET6 model, often referred to as the Ford 4D. If you look under the bonnet of a Ford 4D, you will see there is ample room for the engine without the fuel pump being inclined, and the other truck to which it was fitted where space WAS restricted was the Trader which was not introduced until 1957.

I think the pump was inclined as part of the modifications made to stop the engine from running backwards. It was discovered by hard experience that the early engines could run backwards under certain conditions, especially when idling at low revs and "hunting" on the governor, where the engine almost stops then surges then almost stops again etc. The fuel rack would go over-centre and the engine would run backwards. When this happened air was drawn into the engine via the exhaust manifold, exhaust gases were expelled via the inlet manifold and air cleaner, there was no vacuum to return the governor diaphragm against the spring so the engine ran uncontrolled at full revs, and the operator had a nervous breakdown!

It seems that three modifications were introduced close together to correct this fault - the injection timing was changed from a fairly advanced 29 degrees BTDC to 26 degrees BTDC, a dwell was machined onto each lobe of the pump camshaft, and the pump was inclined by 10 degrees to the vertical.

Of course some engines are designed to be able to run both ways, such as the large low speed diesel engines in ships where there is no gearbox between the engine and propeller shaft, and the engine has to be stopped and re-started again in the opposite direction for docking in port.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Billy26F5 »

The only change I had read solving the engines running backwards was the new camshafts, whereby pump numbers were suffixed B on early pumps (1239515). The Allan T Condie Major book says the pump was inclined to fit the ET6, and the dates do seem to correspond. Moreover, the keyway in the camshaft was also repositioned, which means that little would have changed in the pump's operation (pump no. 52205). The timing was changed much later (January 1956), and engines before 1308977 were not easy to retime, as the only mark was on the pulley (at 29º BTDC) with the pointer attached to the front dynamo bracket. I can't remember reading of any engines running backwards after 1239515. Hunting on the governor means the damping valve needs adjusting, as it will give a greater tendency to stall. I can't say this for sure, but would it not be possible to use the stop control in the usual way in such an incident? The revs would be much higher, as it would always be full fuel delivery.
Sandy
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shepp
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by shepp »

Yes, Alan Condie does say that he pump was inclined to fit the ET6 truck, and the narrator in Stuart Gibbard's DVD says something like "....supposedly to give the necessary clearance to allow the engine to fit into the Ford truck...". or ".... ostensibly to give the necessary clearance to allow the engine to fit into the Ford truck...". However, there is enough clearance without having to tilt the pump.

The timing was changed from 29 degrees to 26 degrees after tractor number 1308977, which was early September 1954. During 1954, the cover plate was changed from a 4 bolt to an 8 bolt fitting,
the injection pump pre-filter was discontinued, the mounting bracket was changed to a 10 degree angle to the vertical with a corresponding change in the position of the keyway on the injection pump camshaft, the pump camshaft was machined with a dwell on the lobes, and excess fuel selection changed to a push button very late in the year. I still think the tilt in the pump mounting was meant to work in conjunction with the dwell on the camshaft lobes, to rectify the problem of the engine running backwards. It is hard to visualise but the dwell would work better with a tilt in the pump.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Billy26F5 »

Billy26F5 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:22 pm
The Allan T Condie Major book says the pump was inclined to fit the ET6.
Allan T Condie says that they wanted more clearance for the injector pipes, I'm not suggesting a vertical pump is impossible to fit. Also, the date (April 1954) coincides with the new 4D ET6, and I know that the half millionth Dagenham Fordson (22 Feb 54) had a vertical pump, from the film in ford & fordson on film 6. I can't see any reason for the dwell to work better on an inclined pump, as all the relative positions are the same.
shepp wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:49 pm
The timing was changed from 29 degrees to 26 degrees after tractor number 1308977
Again from Allan T Condie, timing was advanced in January 56, much later than the pulley change on 1308977. Many engines between the two changes would have been retimed when the new setting appeared.
The new camshafts (with the dwell) appeared on 1239515, pump numbers were suffixed B on early pumps to identify the new camshaft without dismantling the pump (I can't remember seing one without the suffix). Look at the fuel system section of the 1954 Ford repair manual to see about some camboxes stamped A (in place of the B). Plain ones (1952 only) indicate an engine that can run backwards.
Sandy
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shepp
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by shepp »

Hello Sandy

Whilst over at the other farm today I dug out my copy of Alan Condie's book :

The British Tractor Story - 3
"Fordson & Ford"

- probably the first time I have looked at it in over 20 years! This is the only book of his on Ford and Fordson that I have.

On page 86 the picture "The engine that killed the V.O. Tractor", the caption reads "...these had a habit of running backwards if the idling revs were too low and the pump rack had to be modified to stop this".
On page 90 the middle picture has the caption "Ford policy of continuous improvement ensured that teething troubles with the E1A models were soon sorted out. Note the restoration of the hand brake on this example, and the inclined fuel pump. The latter feature was undertaken to prevent engine runback, a problem encountered with early machines".

In Stuart Gibbard's "Dearborn to Dagenham" page 119 : "The upright fuel pump on the early diesel models was also mounted at an inclined angle and slightly modified with a dwell put on the cam to prevent the control rack going over centre. This was to prevent the engine running backwards from idle - a sometimes frightening experience with the throttle then working in reverse."

There is no reference in this book of Condie's to the pump being inclined to fit the ET4 or ET6 trucks, I was mistaken over that point, and there is no reference to changes to the injection pump timing either. However, the Ford workshop manual clearly states that the timing was changed from 29 degrees BTDC to 26 degrees BTDC at tractor number 1308977 which was absolutely early September 1954. The only modification that I am aware of that was made to the fuel rack was the change from square ends that ran in the pump body to round ends, the rack with square ends had a habit of sticking if unused for a while and being a bit hesitant in operation.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Billy26F5 »

I see you don't have Condie's superb Major book (I thoroughly recommend it, it has lots of exploded diagrams from the 1965 Major parts book and lots of serial number references to go with the changes, with a list of monthly serial numbers at the back. The Dexta and JCB books are also brilliant. We don't have any others yet.), all the things I mention come from this book or with an extra number from the Ford manual. Stuart Gibbard doesn't give any dates for most of the changes, and no serial numbers at all (we do have this one).
shepp wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:11 pm
However, the Ford workshop manual clearly states that the timing was changed from 29 degrees BTDC to 26 degrees BTDC at tractor number 1308977
Do you happen to have a service letter covering this matter? As that supplement was much later (the 1959 one), Ford instructed that tractors between the new pulleys appearing and the new timing being updated, as it was perfectly easy with the new flywheel. On page 35 of Condie's Major book it seems pretty clear when those changes took place, and the timing is discribed as follows: "Injection pump timing was the next matter to recieve attention, and this was advanced from 29º to 26º B.T.D.C. in January 1956; this setting could be applied retrospectively to previous engines."
Sandy
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Jm-baker
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Jm-baker »

shepp wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:06 pm
Up until tractor number1380938 the serial number was stamped on the top of the clutch housing immediately behind the starter motor, there was no number stamped on the engine and the numbers on the clutch housing and the serial number plate should be the same. So where does the number 1302950 come from??

A serial number of 1302950 indicates a July 1954 build date. A serial number of 1286920 indicates a March 1954 build date.

You have a vertically mounted pump with a 4 bolt cover plate. The cover plate was changed to an 8 bolt fitting at pump number 34624, and the pump mounting bracket was changed from a vertical type to one canted by 10 degrees at pump number 52205, both changes in 1954. Check the numbers stamped on your pump.

Pump type SPE 4A 70S 296 is the earliest type of pump fitted to these Mark 1 engines, the later pump used was the SPE 4A 70S 380 with modifications to the governor and fuel rack. Both had 7 mm diameter pumping elements,

As Sandy says it us very likely that you will have to fabricate a fuel line from the filter to the pump. The injector pipes are also different for these early vertically mounted pumps, they are harder to source as well.
Just picking this up again, does anyone know if the SPE 4A 70S 296 pump was originally fitted to my 1286920 engine?
Does anyone know the engine number they changed to the SPE 4A 70S 380 ?

Thanks

Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Billy26F5 »

The eight bolts on the cover appeared on pump no. 34624 (tractor no. 1271510),, the pre-filter dissappeared on pump no. 39001, the inclined 10º pump started at pump no. 52205, and the new button type excess fuel device appeared on pump no. 61994 (tractor no. 1299000). From here to 1425097 I reckon is the period of the 380 pump. The 296 pump lasted till 1239515, when it was replaced by the 298 (or 297, it's a bit confusing sometimes as the later 497 and 498 are both very similar apart from the fact that the 497 is the later exhauster pump, the 498 being the normal Mk2 type, both in use from 1425097, I can't remember if it's the 297 or 298 right now but someone else will put me right on that).
Can you find your pump number, it's on the cambox just below the inspection cover. With that we'll know exactly what pump you've got as some parts can be swapped easily. It's also just possible that your engine got a stock pump but that kind of mixup is rare, it's normally a case with more subtle things (like E27N front wheels that are 7 years older as Billy has), but stock parts are generally rare anyway.
Sandy
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Jm-baker
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Jm-baker »

Thank you Sandy, thats great info.

So it would seem the 4 bolt pump was fitted to models ealrier than my 1286920.
I suspected this is not the original pump due to the botched fuel pipe fo the pump.

With the 10 degree pumps, is it the pump or the mount bracket that is inclined?
Can i fit a 380 pump to my tractor?

Will look for the pump serial again tomorrow, i couldnt see it last time i looked.

Reason behind all this is i think my pump needs overhaul / replacement, so looking at options.

Thanks

Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Billy26F5 »

The main change was to the mounting bracket, but the key location in the camshaft was also moved 10 degrees, so that the relative positions of the coupling flange and adjuster didn't change. You do have the margin for 10 degrees, but it will look a bit odd, having said that I reckon your engine would have started with a vertical pump, but with the eight bolt cover and no pre-filter. Overhauls are expensive, as other pumps will be too, so you'll want to think carefully about what you do. What makes you think the pump is in trouble? I would want to see what a pump was doing before doing a very expensive overhaul which although certainly good for the engine and the pump might not be all that easy to manage in this expensive age. You might find all you need is to do some hard ploughing if the engine has got smokey from not working hard enough.
Hope you can survive without the expensive overhaul.
Sandy
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Jm-baker
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Jm-baker »

Thanks Sandy.

I found the pump serial number, 20228B

Sounds a bit early for my 1286920 tractor ?

Yes still working through the list of possibles to stop it smoking.
It started smoking a good few years ago, no reason i recall. Check timing a number of times, injectors reconditioned, when you give it throttle up a hill or under load it bellows smoke. Read about pumps going our of phase, cams wearing, bearing wearing.

Have a thread going o nthe smoke, will update it now.

The pump model was just interesting as it didnt look like it was original from the cut inlet fuel pipe and i wondered what i should fit if i do change it vs recondition it one day.

Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Billy26F5 »

That is a pretty early pump, I would say April 53. I would also say that the inspection cover is wrong as it should have the second number (assuming the age of the pump I said is real). The cut pipe could just have been a bodge, as these pipes can and do get bent over time from being removed and refitted.
Sandy
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Jm-baker
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Jm-baker »

What pump serial number did the 380 pump start at?

Billy26F5
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Billy26F5 »

I think it was at 1299000 (pump no. 61994), because of the new excess fuel device and also because the plungers from this pump onward had the helix at 50º rather than the previous 45º, but not totally sure due to the fact that Ford never talk about types of pump in the manual, only pump numbers. Your original pump would have all features of the 380 except the new excess fuel device and later plungers.
Sandy
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Jm-baker
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Re: 1954 FMD fuel pump identification help

Post by Jm-baker »

Found what appears to be a 380 pump, without pre-filter.

Hard to tell if its vertical or 10deg ?
Those curly pipes are interesting.

Image

And what i believe i would have had originally, vertical, without pre-filter, 8 bolts. This is a March 1954, mine is July 1954.
This one has an interesting pump cover plate...
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