FSM gear box double lipped seal installation

This forum is for the Fordson New Major, including the Super Major and the Power Major.
shepp
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Re: FSM gear box double lipped seal installation

Post by shepp »

Hi Roadless63

I have never come across a double lipped seal 89mm o/d by 54mm i /d and none of the parts suppliers list such a seal. The service letter detailing the changes to the PTO gearbox on the NP tractor states :

"PTO Gearbox Shaft, Oil seal and Extension Shaft

The PTO gearbox shaft is modified in the area of the rear bearing and seal to permit the use of a larger improved seal. The bearing remains unchanged, however it is now retained on the shaft by two circlips (snap rings). The previous bearing was retained by one circlip and a shoulder on the shaft.
The PTO extension shaft has been strengthened to transmit the increased torque loads now available. The latest shaft is readily identified by the larger 2-1/8" diameter of the tube portion. The previous part was 2" in diameter.

The part numbers affected are:

Qty...............Previous....................Description..........................Qty...............Latest
1...................DKN-7255.................PTO Gearbox Shaft...............1.................DDN-7255
1...................DKN-7297-A & B.......Oil Seal..................................1..................DDN-7297
1...................BB-7045....................Circlip.....................................2.................BB-7045
1...................DKN-7260..................PTO Extension Shaft............1.................DDN-7260

The previous seal will continue to be serviced. After existing inventories of the previous shafts are depleted, only the latest parts will be serviced."

This clearly indicates that the earlier PTO units used two identical seals "A & B" but which were supplied as a package under one part number.
The latest PTO gearbox shaft can be fitted to the earlier PTO gearbox housing by using the latest type seal and an additional circlip, the workshop manual also makes that clear. However in practice I doubt that anyone will come across an earlier PTO gearbox with the later shaft fitted. The weakness in the earlier PTO systems was that the PTO gearbox case would fail when the two lugs carrying the intermediate shaft and gear would shear off due to excessive torque loads in the system caused by the low speed of the engine and PTO drive gears on the pre NP tractors. This often caused damage to the PTO gears but the shaft usually escaped damage and was re-used when the PTO assembly was rebuilt into a new PTO gearbox case.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

AdrianNPMajor
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Re: FSM gear box double lipped seal installation

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

As with all situations such as these, measure inside & outside diameter, then contact seal supplier.
Machinery of this era was built around available bearings & seals, not the other way round.
I didn't even think to look for a New Holland seal. If I remember rightly, I found a double-lipped seal from Action Seals in Liverpool.

shepp
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Re: FSM gear box double lipped seal installation

Post by shepp »

Now then Roadless63

Having done a bit of research and looked at my 1952, 1956 and 1959 parts books, it seems your suspicions about a double lip seal for the earlier PTO gearbox are correct. The 1952 parts book has part number E1ADKN-7297-A listed as the only number for this seal quantity needed 1 with no description. The 1956 parts book has two parts listed, E1ADKN-7297-A described as a double lip seal used for 1952 tractors with quantity needed as 1, and E1ADKN-7297-B described as a single lip seal used on tractors from 1953 onwards with quantity required 2. There is a mark against E1A-7297-B and a footnote at the bottom of the page explaining the mark that says "Supplied only in pairs. One pair optional replacement for one E1ADKN-7297-A".

It seems that the original late 1951 and 1952 tractors used a double lip seal which must have been 89mm x 54mm, but this was dropped sometime in 1953 and replaced by two 89mm x 54mm
single lip seals fitted back to back for all tractors from that point in 1953 onwards. The pair of single lip seals could be used to replace the earlier double lip seal on earlier tractors. Presumably it was found that the pair of seals performed better than a single double lip seal, and the double lip seal was discontinued for the earlier PTO gearboxes.

I have never come across a supplier that has the earlier 89mm x 54mm seal in double lip build, probably because it was not a success, but clearly this is where any confusion about these seals comes from!! By reducing the PTO shaft diameter on the NP models to 44.5mm this allowed for more " meat" and substance in a double lip seal and this is why the double lip seal was reintroduced for the NP models. They still failed though after time like the single lip seals did!

We learn a bit more everyday!
Last edited by shepp on Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Billy26F5
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Re: FSM gear box double lipped seal installation

Post by Billy26F5 »

Excellent stuff shepp, it's always great to see what all the part numbers are, having lots of parts books and service letters helps of course.
Sandy
ImageImageImage

shepp
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Re: FSM gear box double lipped seal installation

Post by shepp »

Hi Adrian and Sandy

Yes it's all very interesting stuff and you learn what issues the manufacturers came across as a the tractors were used and further developed, little things you never even thought about at the time you had these tractors in full time work. With the Majors the issues were all relatively minor and easily fixed, the only real weakness the Major range had was in the PTO gearbox case and the PTO and gear ratios and that only became apparent later as PTO implements needing more power started to be used and the tractors were worked very hard. The NP tractor sorted that problem out.

Adrian's point about bearing and seal factors is interesting and very relevant. In Lancashire in the 1960's and 1970's there was a fantastic amount of manufacturing going on, machines of all descriptions, commercial vehicles etc were being churned out in the thousands, ship building and maintenance, and the cotton and wool mills were still busy. Consequently there were a large number of engineering factors in business, and one I particularly remember was Firma Mill Supplies. Here you could get off the shelf virtually any bearing, any oil seal, any flat or V belt, any standard pulley, any chain or cog etc and all fastenings such as Allen screws, grub screws, high tensile bolts and nuts etc. If you needed anything you did not go to H & J Quick or Warrington Tractors or F R Sharrock or (Heaven forbid!) Burgess and pay main agent prices, you went to the engineering factors and bought at prices about half those of the machinery agents. All top quality original equipment BRITISH, German, USA and later Japanese made brands as well! The motor factors such as Edmunds Walker, Paul Backhouse etc were excellent as well, Hepolite pistons rings and liners, Payen gaskets, Glacier bearings, Terrys valve springs etc for virtually any tractor, car or commercial vehicle in stock and off the shelf. Sadly no more!! I will make a note of Action Seals for future reference.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Roadless63
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Re: FSM gear box double lipped seal installation

Post by Roadless63 »

Sorry don't get on here very often. Yes I was pretty sure the A and B referred to double or single lipped seals with the singles to be used in pairs. I assumed due to supply chain issues the singles were made available but it could be they were seen as more durable. I think we've examples of both kinds here in original Ford packaging but I'd have to go rummaging to find them. I think the only later type seals are payen manufactured rather than Ford packaged.
Incidentally I've found the later np pto pot to be a weakness, the part supporting the shaft for the uppermost gear (idler gear I suppose) sometimes breaks.

shepp
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Re: FSM gear box double lipped seal installation

Post by shepp »

Hi Roadless 63
What you say about the NP PTO box having a ".....weakness the part supporting the shaft for the uppermost gear (idler gear I suppose) sometimes breaks" is a bit strange! The whole idea of the NP tractor was to allow the engine to run faster at 540rpm PTO speed in order to deliver more of the power it had to the PTO shaft, AND at the same time the PTO gearbox housing and the gears and shafts was significantly strengthened and the 2 lugs carrying the "idler gear" were very significantly strengthened in order to ELIMINATE the problem of PTO gearbox failure on the earlier Super, Power and ordinary Majors that was becoming more of an issue as PTO implements requiring more power, such as rotavators and forage harvesters, became more widely used.

In fact in the official Ford workshop manual covering the changes to the PTO on the NP tractors there is a warning about the earlier PTO gearboxes where Ford says "...On tractors before serial number 08C960337 it is recommended that maximum power (PTO) should only be utilised under steady load conditions". The first NP tractor was 08C960337. In other words Ford was warning that the earlier tractors should not be subject to surging/alternating loads or extreme constant loads on the PTO system, they were not actually admitting to the increasingly known issue of PTO gearbox failure where the two lugs carrying the idler gear shear off that the earlier tractors were suffering from, but it was implicit in the warning!

We have never had a PTO gearbox failure on tractors that were used on the farms from the 1952 models onwards, but we have bought tractors in for re-sale that did have smashed PTO gearboxes. However I have never heard of a failure in a NP PTO system or come across a failure, have you a bit more information of your experiences?

AdrianNPMajor
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Re: FSM gear box double lipped seal installation

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

Image


Old Hywel
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Re: FSM gear box double lipped seal installation

Post by Old Hywel »

While we’ve all done things we shouldn’t, and cut a few corners occasionally, I can’t believe anyone would film themselves using a machine with an unguarded driveshaft.

AdrianNPMajor
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Re: FSM gear box double lipped seal installation

Post by AdrianNPMajor »

Well now you can believe it.
And we're all wondering what those things are that you confess to doing but should not have done.
Don't hold back!

shepp
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Re: FSM gear box double lipped seal installation

Post by shepp »

The old girl is doing well there Adrian, no smoke and doesn't sound laboured, although the soil is dry and it's a different story with wet soil! The photograph shows the ground rough ploughed some time ago whereas the video is after the ground has had at least one pass with the harrow or discs, how does the tractor cope on ploughed ground? I use a 3 metre harrow on a 7740 sometimes, it is a handy size for some fields and also for the indoor and outdoor riding surfaces at the equestrian centre, but if the ploughed soil is damp it can make the tractor work! There is a video on YouTube of a standard Major working with a 5 foot Howard Rotavator, no raised PTO, masses of black smoke, poor thing, every time I watch it I keep expecting the "bang" as the PTO gearbox case gives up!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Roadless63
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Re: FSM gear box double lipped seal installation

Post by Roadless63 »

Sorry for the slow reply, yes my experience is that the NP pto unit definitely gives trouble. We do sell quite a few used parts for majors and there is definitely a demand for NP units which have been broken. In fact I can't recall anyone asking for an earlier type unit to replace a broken one whereas I suppose we've sold 10 or a dozen NP ones where the reason was to replace a broken one. I have also heard of the shaft being twisted right off where a 6 cylinder engine has been fitted.
shepp wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:22 pm
Hi Roadless 63
What you say about the NP PTO box having a ".....weakness the part supporting the shaft for the uppermost gear (idler gear I suppose) sometimes breaks" is a bit strange! The whole idea of the NP tractor was to allow the engine to run faster at 540rpm PTO speed in order to deliver more of the power it had to the PTO shaft, AND at the same time the PTO gearbox housing and the gears and shafts was significantly strengthened and the 2 lugs carrying the "idler gear" were very significantly strengthened in order to ELIMINATE the problem of PTO gearbox failure on the earlier Super, Power and ordinary Majors that was becoming more of an issue as PTO implements requiring more power, such as rotavators and forage harvesters, became more widely used.

In fact in the official Ford workshop manual covering the changes to the PTO on the NP tractors there is a warning about the earlier PTO gearboxes where Ford says "...On tractors before serial number 08C960337 it is recommended that maximum power (PTO) should only be utilised under steady load conditions". The first NP tractor was 08C960337. In other words Ford was warning that the earlier tractors should not be subject to surging/alternating loads or extreme constant loads on the PTO system, they were not actually admitting to the increasingly known issue of PTO gearbox failure where the two lugs carrying the idler gear shear off that the earlier tractors were suffering from, but it was implicit in the warning!

We have never had a PTO gearbox failure on tractors that were used on the farms from the 1952 models onwards, but we have bought tractors in for re-sale that did have smashed PTO gearboxes. However I have never heard of a failure in a NP PTO system or come across a failure, have you a bit more information of your experiences?

shepp
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Re: FSM gear box double lipped seal installation

Post by shepp »

Hi Roadless 63

All I can say is your experiences are the exact opposite of our experiences in the 1960's and 1970's! Ford knew that there was an inherent weakness in the earlier PTO gearbox housings that became more apparent as implements requiring greater PTO power appeared and became more widely used. In addition the engine running at a low 1200 rpm on the earlier tractors and low shaft and gear speeds set up big torque loadings in the PTO transmission which transferred into significant shear stresses in the castings. Failures of the earlier PTO gearbox case became more widely experienced. At that time around the late 1960's onwards Frank Rowland, who today has probably about 250 or more John Deere tractors and about 150 or so JCB telehandlers and Fastracs plus tankers and manure spreaders etc in his hire fleet, was breaking tractors and one of his fastest moving lines for the Major was the earlier pto gearboxes. There was no demand for the NP pto gearboxes. We have never had a failure on any tractors we used on the farm but have bought in for re-sale Majors, Power Majors and blue/orange Super Majors with broken PTO gearboxes, but never come across a NP model with a broken PTO gearbox. The NP PTO gearbox case is a much heavier and stronger item. It's good to hear of other people's experiences, it all adds to the bank of knowledge!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

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