Ready for first start since overhaul.

This forum is for the Fordson New Major, including the Super Major and the Power Major.
Billy26F5
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by Billy26F5 »

shepp wrote:
Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:33 pm
Strangely enough some workshop manuals caution against oiling the bolts or nuts before installation, I do not know the reason for this, but personally I always oil the threads but give time for excess oil to drip off before installation to avoid the issue of oil getting trapped in the bottom of the thread bore and hydraulicking when the bolt is tightened down which could lead to a cracked block.
I think the writers of the manual think people will pour oil in the hole, rather than smear it on the thread, I think a dry thread is much more likely to shear off when it needs to come off, as well as the load the bolt is taking not being high enough.
shepp wrote:
Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:33 pm
Another point is that some of the best engine experts I know will say that for cast iron heads the head should be re-torqued when the engine is hot, this is because the steel head bolts expand more than the cast head, so that after re-torquing as the engine cools the bolts will be under increased tension, however as the engine is run up to temperature again the bolts will expand more than the head and the bolts will revert to true torque.
The opposite is true for aluminium cylinder heads, aluminium expands more than the steel head bolts so aluminium heads should always be torqued up and re- torqued when the engine is cold.
I didn't think of that, makes perfect sense.
shepp wrote:
Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:33 pm
With regard to ring gaps, I also do not set any gaps on the thrust side of the piston at 90 degrees to the engine longitudinal line. I seem to remember that the early Land Rover Series workshop manual makes a point about avoiding this and my father always used make the point as well. Workshop manuals will advise that ring gaps should be spread evenly around the piston, so it is impossible to avoid ANY ring gaps on the thrust side of the piston, but a gap at 90 degrees to the engine line on the thrust side must be avoided.
I had understood that to be the point too, a 5 ring piston will be closer to that area than the 3 ring piston on the Land-Rover engine (unless the diesel engine has more rings, we're hoping to get that manual soon).
Sandy
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shepp
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by shepp »

Hi Sandy

Yes the 2 litre Rover diesel engine and then the 2.25 litre engine had 3 compression rings and one oil control ring above the gudgeon pin in factory build form, with a further oil control ring groove below the gudgeon pin "for service purposes only". If you bought new rings off a Land Rover dealership they came as separate individual items with individual part numbers and no ring was listed for the second oil control groove. If you bought a re-ring set off Hepolite for example they would come with the 3 compression rings and a composite multi segment oil ring for the groove above the gudgeon pin and a plain cast iron oil scraper ring for the groove below the gudgeon pin.

The same set up with 3 compression and one oil ring above the gudgeon pin and a further oil ring groove below the pin for service purposes was true for the Standard 23C engine fitted in the Ferguson 35 and for the 23CV engine which was a high speed version for automotive applications. The Standard engine and the Rover engines are virtually mirror images of each other, both were developed at the same time and both engines used the Ricardo Comet 3 combustion system and the same Ricardo consulting engineers worked on the development of both engines. What many people do not know is that a cold climate cylinder head with 4 glowplugs similar to the Rover head was developed in the development stage of the 23C engine but Massey Harris Ferguson would only allow it to be fitted to tractors destined for "defined territories only". In essence this meant for extreme cold climates such as the Scandanavian countries and even then it was an optional extra that had to be specified on ordering. There are many 4 cylinder MF 35 tractors with glowplug heads in Sweden for example. If the glowplug head had been fitted as standard equipment to all tractors from the beginning the cold starting reputation of the 4 cylinder MF 35 would have been a lot better.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Billy26F5
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by Billy26F5 »

Allan T Condie mentioned that about the Fergie, and how the std. fitment of one heater instead of 4 gave the TEF-20 its bad starting reputation, and how Ford tried to cash in on that with the Dexta. I did wonder about the diesel Land-rover having a fourth ring, I didn't know the engine was that similar to the Standard engine.
Sandy
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SvendH
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by SvendH »

One heater- does that mean one heater per cyl Or only one cyl is “heated”?
Svend

shepp
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by shepp »

On the TEF - 20 a heater plug was fitted in the inlet manifold with a "Ki - Gass" hand operated pump spraying neat fuel onto the hot plug to create hot vapours which are drawn into the engine on cranking to assist cold starting, the same set up as the Dexta has in reality except that the hand pumps are different. The TEF - 20 used a separate reservoir for the fuel used for the heater plug so that Kerosene could be used which ignites faster and burns hotter and the hand pump was in the right hand dash panel, the Dexta used diesel fuel from the main tank with the combination pump / shut off tap under the main tank on the nearside. The Ferguson 35 could have either a plain heater plug with a separate hand pump and reservoir, or it had the widely used "Thermostart" where no hand pump was used and diesel from a reservoir fed by leak off and return fuel from the injection pump and injectors was used to fuel the Thermostart.
The "Cold Climate" cylinder head for the Ferguson 35 23C engine had a separate glowplug in each combustion chamber as many modern diesel engines have.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

John b
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by John b »

I was talking to a chap who had his 4 cylinder MF35 head drilled and tapped to take land rover glow plugs, that and a new set of rings cured all his starting problems
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by Billy26F5 »

I think the automotive Standard engine did have a heater per cylinder, this was reduced to a manifold heater for the Fergie to make the engine cheaper. Always great to read people's homemade solutions.
Sandy
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shepp
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by shepp »

The diesel engine used in the Ferguson TEF 20 and the Standard Vanguard car and van was the Standard 20C. This had a CAV inline injection pump with a vacuum governor and it also had an excess fuel button, so like the Major when the engine stopped the governor spring moved the fuel rack to maximum fuelling and when the excess fuel button was depressed even more fuel was available for starting. They also had a 2 stage decompressor which could be operated from the seat. In cold weather the handle was pushed to full decompression, the engine was got spinning on the starter and the decompressor lever moved back to the partial decompression notch which restored compression to one cylinder. When that cylinder was firing strongly the decompression lever was moved to full off so that compression was restored to the other cylinders. As explained previously both tractor and vehicle versions of these engines had a single heater plug in the inlet manifold with a Ki Gass pump to spray fuel on the hot plug. The combined use of the excess fuel button, decompressor and Ki Gass heater usually got an engine in good condition started in any weather. None of these 20C engines had glow plugs in each cylinder, either originally or retrospectively fitted in an engineering workshop. The only real difference between tractor and automotive versions was that the fuel lift pump was mounted on the block driven off the camshaft on tractor versions, whilst on the automotive version it was mounted on the injection pump and driven off the pump camshaft - much like the tractor and vehicle versions of the 592E Ford engine were.

The Standard 23C Ferguson 35 tractor engine and 23CV automotive engines had CAV rotary pumps. As previously explained a cold climate head with a glowplug in each cylinder had been developed in the engineering programme, but was only available as an optional extra on the tractor for tractors exported to extreme cold climates. I don't think this was to save money as it was charged for if specified on the export tractors. It was probably either a miscalculation by Massey Harris Ferguson or it was vanity by MHF and/or Standard Motor Company. At that time very few of the automotive application 23CV engines were fitted with glowplug heads either.
The 23C engine was a low speed variant with a mechanically governed rotary pump and a backplate casting with 2 starter apertures to fit the 35 tractor. The 23CV was a high speed variant with a hydraulically governed rotary pump and a backplate casting with one starter aperture on the offside or right hand side. The backplate of the 23CV will exactly fit the Ferguson TEF 20 bell housing, and many TEF 20 tractors were fitted with 23CV engines from scrap vehicles when their own 20C engines gave up the ghost. Standard supplied the 23CV engine without a makers plate on it to the Rootes Group, and this organisation marketed it as the "Rootes Light Diesel Engine" for fitting in their Commer vans and Karrier light trucks. After MF dropped the engine for the 35 tractor in October 1959, Standard renamed it as the OE138 engine. An additional version was introduced, the OE160 with a larger bore and a further half inch stroke on the crankshaft. As before low and high speed versions of each engine were available. By now Rootes and other users were agitating over cold starting and the glowplug head became a standard fitting. Contrary to popular belief the engines continued in production for a long time. Applications included the FE35 tractor, Commer and Karrier vehicles, Standard Atlas and Leyland vans, compressors and generators, the Allis Chalmers ED40 tractor, Scammell Scarab and the later Scammell Townsman 3 wheel tractor units. In addition the German company Kramer fitted the OE138 and OE160 engines in their 350 Export and 450 Export tractors until 1973, when Kramer stopped tractor production to concentrate on materials handling equipment. Marine versions were also produced
particularly of the OE160 high speed engine. Production finally ceased around 1978.

What has this to do with Fordson? Nothing really, but it's all part of the history (like Ford and Fordson is ) of a very interesting time in dominant British tractor and other manufacturing!
Last edited by shepp on Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

John b
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by John b »

Very interesting Shepp, and I think the histories of alot of british engines/vehicles are very much intertwined with the crossover of parts and also advances made to try and beat the competitors. The British motrcycle industry suffered from their arrogance of thinking they were the best in the world and didn't need to waste money on development, then realising too late that the Japanese were suddenly years ahead of them
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by Billy26F5 »

shepp wrote:
Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:04 pm
I don't think this was to save money as it was charged for if specified on the export tractors. It was probably either a miscalculation by Massey Harris Ferguson or it was vanity by MHF and/or Standard Motor Company.
I thought it was to make the domestic tractors cheaper by not using what was a more complicated arrangement. I didn't know that Fergie's had excess fuel as well, although it seems it wasn't very effective there by the bad starting reputation of the 20C; using indirect injection wouldn't have helped either as it's a more difficult starter by its nature of being a separate chamber with a relitively small connecting bore to the cylinder with effectively more cold metal to heat up.
Sandy
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Pavel
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by Pavel »

I believe, because this is a discussion about a Fordson Super Major engine, it would be worthwhile listing some of the instructions that the official Ford manual has to say in its supplement about assembling the FSM engine -- particularly piston ring gaps and tensioning cylinder head bolts.

Piston ring gaps: ' Do not place ring gaps in line [vertically] with the piston pin ends.'
Tensioning head bolts: 'Tighten the head bolts to between 85 and 90 foot pounds.'[and after assembling and fitting the engine to the tractor, plus the ancillaries] 'Run the engine up to operating temperature and then tension the head bolts to the correct foot pounds.' End of quotes!

Whether or not you subscribe to the above instructions is down to you. Personally I am quite happy to space my rings around the piston and apposed to each other as much as possible.
As to the torquing-up of the head bolts; I find those instructions somewhat ambiguous -- plus I stand by comments in my previous post that one should allow the engine to cool firstly before cracking and re-tensioning. And just to add a little creditability [not a boast], I was taught this method in the late 50s whilst working on the old Rootes Groupe engines [Hillman, Singer & Sinbeams] and in later years on Fords, Austins and Alfa Romeos, plus my present Fordson Super Major. As well I am currently re-conditioning my 1991 Peugeot 505 GTi. All, with the exception of my Peugeot, which is a work in progress, have had their heads tensioned as I have described and have stood the test of time. Note also that some of these heads were cast iron or aluminium -- with some whole engines being aluminium.

Probably, though, the main question is; is it worth the extra time and effort? Try this when needed.

Before filling with any oil make 2 marks per bolt with quick drying paint -- one on the bolt/nut and one adjacent to it on the head. After having fitted all the other bits and pieces and added oil and water fire it up until it reaches operating temperature and then turn it off and let it cool for some 2 hours.
The reason for this cooling off period is that it equalises all the bolt/studs/nuts together, along with their surrounding head metal [second law of thermodynamics]. Now crack [loosen] by a quarter turn and re-torque.
And now the interesting part:
Measure the gap between the 2 paint marks along side each fastener.and record them. When you examine and compare them I believe you will be surprised -- not just at the amount the re-torsioning has caused; but at the differences there are between the smallest gaps and the largest one[s].
Cooling after heating pays!
Pavel

Billy26F5
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by Billy26F5 »

Pavel wrote:
Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:23 pm
Piston ring gaps: ' Do not place ring gaps in line [vertically] with the piston pin ends.'
What we were saying is that there are two ways to do this, one has a gap at 90 degrees from the pin facing the thrust side of the bore and the other has it opposite that side; and we were saying it should be the latter to avoid overstressing the thrust side of the bore.
Pavel wrote:
Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:23 pm
Tensioning head bolts: 'Tighten the head bolts to between 85 and 90 foot pounds.'[and after assembling and fitting the engine to the tractor, plus the ancillaries] 'Run the engine up to operating temperature and then tension the head bolts to the correct foot pounds.'


As to the torquing-up of the head bolts; I find those instructions somewhat ambiguous -- plus I stand by comments in my previous post that one should allow the engine to cool firstly before cracking and re-tensioning. And just to add a little creditability [not a boast], I was taught this method in the late 50s whilst working on the old Rootes Groupe engines [Hillman, Singer & Sinbeams] and in later years on Fords, Austins and Alfa Romeos, plus my present Fordson Super Major. As well I am currently re-conditioning my 1991 Peugeot 505 GTi. All, with the exception of my Peugeot, which is a work in progress, have had their heads tensioned as I have described and have stood the test of time. Note also that some of these heads were cast iron or aluminium -- with some whole engines being aluminium.

Probably, though, the main question is; is it worth the extra time and effort? Try this when needed.

Before filling with any oil make 2 marks per bolt with quick drying paint -- one on the bolt/nut and one adjacent to it on the head. After having fitted all the other bits and pieces and added oil and water fire it up until it reaches operating temperature and then turn it off and let it cool for some 2 hours.
The reason for this cooling off period is that it equalises all the bolt/studs/nuts together, along with their surrounding head metal [second law of thermodynamics]. Now crack [loosen] by a quarter turn and re-torque.
And now the interesting part:
Measure the gap between the 2 paint marks along side each fastener.and record them. When you examine and compare them I believe you will be surprised -- not just at the amount the re-torsioning has caused; but at the differences there are between the smallest gaps and the largest one[s].
Cooling after heating pays!
Pavel
I think we want to let it cool down to avoid distorting the head bolts, but the sealing is most important to be perfect when the engine is hot, so there is that to consider, as well as Shepp's comment on the different expansion ratios, which I think will be variable in different parts of the head because of the cylinders and exhaust ports being hotter and the outer surfaces and especially the intake ports being cold, the coolant obviously reduces these differences drastically, but they don't go away, so that means that the head is quite a different shape when hot from the manufacturing temperature which is cold; the compression from the bolts will also deform the head. It's probably worth trying both and seeing which works best, then making clear what needs to be done so other overhauls can be right first time. It's important not to forget to reset tappet clearances after re-torquing the head.
Sandy
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Emiel
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

Interesting reading here about retorquing up heads. I’m not a mechanic by trade, but am an educated mechanical engineer and find the opinions here very interesting. The engines I did thus far I did re tighten by the manual. Till now all successfull luckily.

Question for Shepp, how related are these standard diesel and petrol engines in the Fergies? As the petrol dexta had such an petrol engine, one could build the worst starting diesel dexta ever, by throwing out the petrol internals in the main dexta petrol engine casting for diesel parts. :D

Regards emiel
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

shepp
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by shepp »

I usually use the technique of marking the bolts/nuts with a white paint line, and yes, the amount the nuts/bolts go further down on re-torquing can be surprising, especially if new bolts/studs/nuts were fitted. I can't say I have particularly noticed a big difference in the amount they go down at different locations on the head, I will watch out for that on the next engine. As I previously said, for the 3 cylinder engines in the Dexta / Super Dexta and the MF 35 /35X I will do 3 re-torques, the last one after about 50 hours running. The bolts/nuts continue to go further down on each re-torque. It's a matter of personal opinion and choice, but I will stick to re-torquing cast iron heads while the engine is hot - Mr Ford approves!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

shepp
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by shepp »

Hi Emiel

The Standard petrol / TVO engines are as different as chalk and cheese to the 20C and 23C diesel engines, there are no common components used like there are on the Major 592E engine.

Bit of a sharp comment about starting ability of the Standard diesels! The trick with these engines is that they have timing chains not timing gears as on the Major and Dexta engines. As the chains stretch and the sprockets and tensioners wear a bit the engines lose critical valve timing, and they lose injection timing as well as the injection pump is driven by the chain on the 20C engine and off the camshaft on the 23C engine. The Land Rover diesels have the same issue, a timing chain not gears and the injection pump driven by a skew drive off the camshaft. On all these engines the valve timing must be periodically checked and if necessary meticulously re-set followed by resetting of the injection timing by removing the side cover on the pump and setting to the relevant letter and scribe line on the internal circlip. Chains and tensioners should be replaced when needed on all engines and the skew drive gear and bush replaced from time to time on the Rover diesel engine. Also the valves and seats must not be cut too far back, the amount the valve heads are recessed below the cylinder head is critical on these engines as it is on the Perkins engines in the 3 cylinder 35 and on the Perkins derived engines in the Dexta and Super Dexta, these measurements must be within limits and if not replace valves and if necessary valve seats.

A Standard 23C engine as fitted in the Ferguson 35 WILL, if in good order and meticulously set up to specification, start in most weathers encountered using just the Thermostart or Ki Gass heaters whichever is fitted - some will start from cold without heat. The 4 cylinder 35 tractor is very much in demand now with collectors and will make as much or more than the 3 cylinder models.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Emiel
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by Emiel »

Hi Shepp,

Thanks for your answer. I was joking of course about the worst starting engine. I’m be no means an expert on Fergy and MF tractors, but was aware about that chain and it’s issues.

Interesting to see that in the uk the 4 pots are equally or higher priced as the 3. Here in Holland a 4 is worth considerably less money.

Drove a 4 cil 35 last year and must admit I liked its sound compared to a dexta and I think I understand why some people prefer a 35 over a dexta. Ergonomically it is marginally better.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

Billy26F5
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by Billy26F5 »

shepp wrote:
Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:31 pm
I will do 3 re-torques, the last one after about 50 hours running.
I agree 100% with doing that, it will ensure the best performance in the long run. I know I keep saying this but I think it's very important for anyone reading this in the situation to remember to reset the tappets each time.
shepp wrote:
Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:03 pm
Bit of a sharp comment about starting ability of the Standard diesels! The trick with these engines is that they have timing chains not timing gears as on the Major and Dexta engines. As the chains stretch and the sprockets and tensioners wear a bit the engines lose critical valve timing, and they lose injection timing as well as the injection pump is driven by the chain on the 20C engine and off the camshaft on the 23C engine. The Land Rover diesels have the same issue, a timing chain not gears and the injection pump driven by a skew drive off the camshaft. On all these engines the valve timing must be periodically checked and if necessary meticulously re-set followed by resetting of the injection timing by removing the side cover on the pump and setting to the relevant letter and scribe line on the internal circlip. Chains and tensioners should be replaced when needed on all engines and the skew drive gear and bush replaced from time to time on the Rover diesel engine. Also the valves and seats must not be cut too far back, the amount the valve heads are recessed below the cylinder head is critical on these engines as it is on the Perkins engines in the 3 cylinder 35 and on the Perkins derived engines in the Dexta and Super Dexta, these measurements must be within limits and if not replace valves and if necessary valve seats.

A Standard 23C engine as fitted in the Ferguson 35 WILL, if in good order and meticulously set up to specification, start in most weathers encountered using just the Thermostart or Ki Gass heaters whichever is fitted - some will start from cold without heat. The 4 cylinder 35 tractor is very much in demand now with collectors and will make as much or more than the 3 cylinder models.
From what you say here it looks like the bad starting reputation of these engines is actually down to neglect and the use of a timing chain instead of gears, very interesting to see the parallels between the Standard and Land-Rover engines.
Sandy
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shepp
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by shepp »

Hi Emiel and Sandy

On Land Rover diesels I have sometimes seen them where the slots in the CAV rotary pump mounting flange have been elongated and sometimes chopped right through in order to get the pump to time up to the timing letter and scribe line! Quite unnecessary, the timing chain and tensioner and the pump skew drive gear and bush should have been replaced and after setting the valve timing the pump would time up well within the slots.

On the FE 35 23 C diesels some people use DTI gauges to exactly get the inlet and exhaust valves on cylinder 4 rocking the same amount in the valve timing process to get perfection! Many others think if they install a new chain and tensioner they can just re-set to the existing marks on the sprockets - not so! Spot on valve timing then injection timing is essential.

The Ferguson 20 tractors were a slightly improved copy of the Ford 9N/2N so were based on an excellent Ford design, however the design of the TO35 by the American division of Harry Ferguson moved the tractor on enormously and the later British built FE35 version was similarly advanced. The hydraulics were significantly improved and have still not been bettered for mechanical depth and draft control systems, excellent steering box, use of planetary reduction gears in the High/Low box, all controls to hand, easy to operate clutch and gear levers, easy mount and dismount etc etc. The drawback initially being the 4 cylinder 23C diesel engine where you had to keep on top of the valve and injection timing issues, but when that was replaced by the 3 cylinder Perkins the tractor was virtually perfect. I love my Dextas because they have their quirks and clean original Dextas are harder to find, but you have to admit the 35 is easier and more comfortable to use. The advantage that the Super Dexta had over the 3 cylinder 35/35X was that, although essentially they had the same engine, Ford set the engine revs at 1800rpm to deliver 540rpm at the PTO on the Super Dexta whereas MF set it at 1500rpm on the 35/35X, consequently the Ford had significantly more PTO power than the MF.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by Billy26F5 »

I see the timing chain problems were ignored or badly fixed with pretty drastic actions. The valve timing is oviously pretty important, and being used to timing gears I think many of us forget that not all engines are as simple to time up as the Dexta and especially the Major.
Sandy
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Pavel
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by Pavel »

Thank you for your comments, Sandy; I was not ignoring or questioning the wisdom of staggering ring gaps -- in fact I wrote '... space my rings around the piston and opposed to each other as much as possible.' The reason I phrased it as I did is because diesel engines, with their much higher compression ratios, invariably have more than 3 p/rings, and usually 5 -- which makes staggering them equally a bit of a problem. But more to the point; I was hoping for a comment as to why FMC state not to place the gaps adjacent to the piston pin ends. My only surmise is that with a floating piston it could leave room for compression gasses to find their way into the sump area and eventually carbon up the free movement of the piston on its pin.

Shepp.
You stated:
' ...  I will do 3 re-torques, the last one after about 50 hours running. The bolts/nuts continue to go further down on each re-torque. It's a matter of personal opinion and choice, but I will stick to re-torquing cast iron heads while the engine is hot - Mr Ford approves!.'

I think you will agree that research and experiment has come a long way in the last half centuary since the last FSM, and others, were built and manuals printed. In fact 'torquing' up head, mains and big end bolts is no longer practised by manufacturers and major machine shops -- including Ford. In their manuals they now use the word 'tensioning' which refers to the actions of the ganged hydraulic machine that tensiones a bolt or stud nut to within an ounce of its tensile elastic strength. These manuals also stress that these bolts must not be re-used. Why? Because the torque-up figures they give in their manuals for garages and budding machanics re-fitting cyl. heads would then exceed the ability of tthose used bolts/studs to retain their designed tensile elastic strength. Since those torque-up figures are pretty close to the tensioning ones initially used I suspect that repeatedly re-torquing any head bolts/studs [hot or cold], and therefor increasingly stretching them, is tatamount to eventual inbuilt failure.
You may find the following web site imformative.

https://www.hextechnology.com/articles/bolt-yield/

Pavel

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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by Billy26F5 »

I think the alignment avoiding the pin is to avoid overstressing the weaker areas as well, the ring gap allows hot gas to come through, and it could cause the pin to bind as the pin runs cooler than the piston does and both are cooler than the gas that leaks through the ring gap.
As for torquing bolts, I think current practices are based on taking everything to the limit rather than oversizing the parts so that they can take a wee bit extra stress without being affected. The website is good, I think bolts in the 50's were a lot less loaded than they are nowadays, so really there shouldn't be any trouble with reusing all bolts on a Major, current engines torqued to the same load will probably have a smaller bolt as it uses less material but it's more likely to be affected by torquing up and also the heat, so they would need a much more careful examination.
Sandy
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John b
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by John b »

One more point on ring gaps i have noticed is the number of people who just install them without checking them in the bore first for correct end gap or checking for burrs on the ends to avoid scratching the bore. I know most general aftermarket ones are made to be correct but i have found a few over the years that needed filing to open the gap, it may take a few extra minutes per cylinder but is alot quicker and cheaper than having a ring break due to an incorrect gap
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by Billy26F5 »

John b wrote:
Sat Feb 19, 2022 9:46 pm
One more point on ring gaps i have noticed is the number of people who just install them without checking them in the bore first for correct end gap or checking for burrs on the ends to avoid scratching the bore. I know most general aftermarket ones are made to be correct but i have found a few over the years that needed filing to open the gap, it may take a few extra minutes per cylinder but is alot quicker and cheaper than having a ring break due to an incorrect gap
Agree 100% John.
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shepp
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by shepp »

The point about re-using head bolts nuts and studs is a good one, even some of the earlier engines have recommendations to fit new ones to the head and to the big end bearing caps on re-assembly and not to use the old ones again, these days many parts suppliers for the older tractors such as Sparex, Agriline, Emmark, QTP etc will list new head bolt/stud/nut kits and big end bolt/stud/nut kits in their parts listings. They are a bit pricey but a lot less costly than the damage done by a con rod coming loose or the inconvenience of a head bolt giving way either during reassembly or in subsequent running causing a blown gasket. The last engine I had the top end stripped on 6 months ago was a Perkins AD3-152 in an MF and I fitted a full head bolt kit from Sparex on reassembly. Many of the old school mechanics would always renew these items on re-assembly.

Absolutely agree with you John on ring gaps. When Hepolite rings were available it was very rare that they needed filing to obtain a correct ring gap, in fact I cannot remember having to do that with Hepolite rings, but generally a bare piston without rings should be placed in the bore and the new ring pushed down to the piston top so that it is square in the bore and further down than the ridge at the top of the bore and the gap checked and if necessary corrected by filing, most recommended gaps used to be around 16 to 19 thousands of an inch. Another point is that in an engine with used bores the bores should be de-glazed using a de-glazing hone otherwise it may be impossible for the new rings to bed in properly, and if the top ring is not a "ridge dodger" ring with an external step to the top then the top ridge in the used bore should be removed using the de-glazing hone to avoid a broken top ring.

The point about not having any ring gaps inline with the gudgeon pin may have something to do with the fact that when the engine is running the piston will "rock" fractionally in the bore around the pin with the thrust side changing from one side on the compression stroke to the opposite side on combustion. I will do a little investigating about this point.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

John b
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Re: Ready for first start since overhaul.

Post by John b »

Another thing i was taught when 'gapping' rings prior to installation on a non-rebored cylinder is to check the gaps with them on the non-thrust side of the engine, as the cylinders have a tendency to wear more on the thrust side and be slightly out of round so if the gap is set on the thrust side it can give a false reading. Of course if a cylinder is that noticably worn it should be re-bored, but a good many of the customers where i used to work were 'careful' with their money and 'just put some rings in it boy, it'll be fine' was the usual response!
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

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