The Fordson Tractor Pages Forum

Okay guy's , I think I am ready for initial start up of this engine. Couple questions first thing I expected to find engine harder to turn over by hand with injectors installed I could feel the compression while turning but still turned over with ease, yes valves are adjusted at 12 and 15, and decompression lever is in off position. Secondly I have had more than one person tell me to do first run with no water and run for a few minutes than retorque head is this a standard process which I should consider. Gentlemen any other advice or tips would be greatly appreciated.

Crud, guess pictures did not work. I am working on 1963 super major . Thanks for input.

Hi, has the engine had a total rebuild? If it has, don't start it without first turning it on the starter motor with the engine stop out and checking the oil pressure, idealy with a pressure gauge connected, not just relying on the warning light. Also leave the rocker cover off and make sure you have oil to the rockers

Never run engine without coolant added,
Test run to normal temp then re-torque,
Compression should build when pistonrings bed in.
How do you turn it, with the fan belt or fan?
Svend

Svend is correct, do not run the engine with no coolant before re-torquing the head, the heat will not be dissipated evenly across the block and head without coolant so the bolts will not all have expanded at the same rate. A rebuilt engine will have more metal on metal contact as the parts bed in so will have a tendency to have hot spots inside. I usualy do an initial 'fire up' with no coolant but only long enough to check oil pressure, then refit the cooling system and initially fill with water while finishing all the checks. Once its run up to temperature and the head is re-torqued and there are no signs of any leaks replace the water with coolant of your choice

When you retorque the head you must also set the tappet clearances properly (when hot), as what you have now is not quite right because the engine is cold. Get the oil up first, then bleed the fuel system (do ensure no air is in there) and ensure there is coolant in the engine (water is ok for one short run, but don't leave it in there any length of time), only then you can try a start, if it doesn't start instantly the engine will need more bedding in. Once all the adjustments are right you need to get ploughing to bed the engine in nicely, light work will only give you a very smokey engine.
Sandy

Turning slowly by hand will allow compressed air to pass the rings until the engine has run for some time and the rings have bedded in to the bores. It will be a different story with the snappy turn of the starter motor. As everyone says do not run the engine without the cooling system being full of water, run up to working temperature then re-torque the head and re-set the tappets. A technique many experienced mechanics use is to firstly crack the bolt/nut off slightly then re-torque to specification doing each bolt/nut in turn, this gets round the situation where sometimes the bolt/nut is effectively bound to the head. Another trick sometimes used is to mark a white line facing forwards on the top of each bolt/but before backing off and then re-torquing, this allows you to see how much further the bolt/nut has gone down. If you have fitted new bolts/nuts/studs I would do a further re-torquing with the engine hot after the engine has run for a few hours to allow for the fact that the new items will stretch a little.
Modern oils are so good that they can obstruct a running in process so you could consider the use of a dedicated running in oil, Morris Lubricants of Shrewsbury do one. Use for about 20 hours work then change oil AND FILTER to a regular oil. After the first re-torquing after checking there are no coolant leaks drain the cooling system and fill with a mix of 50% blue anti freeze and 50% clean water, this is necessary to protect the system - liners, seal ring grooves, block etc - from corrosion. anti freeze should be changed every 2 years as the corrosion inhibitors in it deteriorate after a while.
For the Perkins derived engines fitted in Dextas and Super Dextas which can have head gasket failure issues, I would do 3 re-torques after the initial assembly and torquing on overhaul, mark the bolts/nuts as described above and you will be amazed how much further they eventually go down.

God point there Shepp-the backing of each nut a little before re-torquing,forgot to do it myselflast time
Svend

shepp wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 11, 2022 2:46 pm

fill with a mix of 50% blue anti freeze and 50% clean water, this is necessary to protect the system - liners, seal ring grooves, block etc - from corrosion.

Is it not meant to be ethylene glycol green coolant (as Ford advised)? Don't forget to redo the tappets every time you re-torque the head.
Sandy

The blue antifreeze solutions are ethylene glycol, originally Castrol had their ethylene glycol antifreeze coloured green and possibly that is why the Ford product was green also, perhaps Castrol supplied Ford to sell as Ford's own brand?

Don't forget to check the oil is getting to the rockers, on rare occasions you can have good oil pressure but no oil to the head

John b wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 11, 2022 7:08 pm

Don't forget to check the oil is getting to the rockers, on rare occasions you can have good oil pressure but no oil to the head

Agree 100% John.

shepp wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 11, 2022 5:44 pm

The blue antifreeze solutions are ethylene glycol, originally Castrol had their ethylene glycol antifreeze coloured green and possibly that is why the Ford product was green also, perhaps Castrol supplied Ford to sell as Ford's own brand?

Our ethylene glycol coolant is all green, and I've never heard of anyone in the area using blue stuff in their vehicles contemporary to Major's. That might be to do with what was available many years ago.
Sandy

Antifreeze types and colours seem to be a real minefield. Green antifreeze uses IAT (inorganic acid technology) but blue seems to be available as OAT (organic acid technology) which is silicate free, as well as IAT, both colours are ethylene glycol. From what i can see modern engines (post 1998) need an OAT antifreeze but older ones need IAT. My understanding is that blue antifreeze is ok to use as long as it's an IAT which should be on the label
An interesting read-
https://www.autoserviceworld.com/jobber ... t-coolant/

Colour is tbe the choice of the manufacturer but generally as a rule of thumb IAT 2 year antifreeze is coloured green or blue and generally OAT 5 year (or up to 10 year for some) is coloured orange or sometimes purple and in the case of Prestone OAT it is yellow ! So yes it can be confusing and the label on the product should be read and understood. However personally I have never come across a blue coloured OAT type antifreeze or a green coloured one for that matter. IAT type is generally recommended for earlier engines such as the Fordson because of the way the corrosion inhibitors that are used work, but the inhibitors start to break down at around 2 years after installation so the coolant should be changed at 2 years. IAT types are based on ethylene glycol but OAT types can be based on ethylene glycol or poly glycol (or a combination of both), they started to appear relatively recently compared to the IAT type. OAT types have corrosion inhibitors that work in a different way

We always used Shell traditional 2 year antifreeze which was an IAT type and it was always blue but they do not do it anymore in the UK. Castrol traditional 2 year was an IAT antifreeze and was always green but that is also not available anymore. Our suppliers of Shell fuels and lubricants have sent us 2 different makers of traditional 2 year IAT antifreeze since Shell stopped their product and they have both been coloured blue, so if you buy a blue coloured antifreeze it SHOULD be a traditional IAT 2 year antifreeze based on ethylene glycol but check the product details.

I always thought IAT antifreeze was green or blue, but Penrite are selling a blue OAT advertised as 8 year coolant. So as you say, always check the product details!

Hi,

Never new there is so much technology and things to know about coolant. Very interesting.

Did know although that te quality of coolant had influence on the cavitation problems with the 600 and 10 series engines in the eighties.

Regards emiel

Superb article John. It definitely seems the colours are what the manufacturer wants, although it seems green was the first colour used.
Sandy

Seems that the wrong coolant can cause more engine damage than none at all! I'm with you Sandy, blue tractor, green antifreeze, keep it simple!

Who does a green coloured IAT type in the UK?

Now you got me thinking Shepp. I never bought antifreeze as my uncle used to be a fitter for a large plant company and always gave me drums of the stuff, it was IAT and green but i don't know who made it or where they got it from (i used to get in clear 5 gallon drums). It was used in the Cats and JCBs they had but my stock has just about run out and he's retired. I always just assumed that IAT was available in blue or green in the UK but looking at what is available you are correct and it is blue. Valvoline zerex original is the only green IAT i can see sold in the uk, not sure how widely available it is in though

Good day Jparks1; and others who are absorbed in this interesting discussion. I would like to add my two bobs worth to clarify certain suggestions that have been made.

Firstly; always have water in the cooling system when running the engine as without it you will undoubtedly induce 'heat scatter' which will badly effect your ability to accurately torque up variable temperature head bolts/studs. And whilst it is good practice to empty the initial fill so as to remove the inevitable particles that will have accumulated during an overhaul; why not make the heat up process work for you by pouring in a can/tin/bottle of rad cleaner before hand?
One of the previous posts mentioned, in passing, 'cavitation'. In general this has been found to be a serious problems only in diesel engines with much higher compression ratios [25 to 1 as apposed to our 15 to 1] and revs. approaching, and above, 5000rpm i.e trucks/lorries and cars. Much more serious is 'electrolysis' which is corrosion to dissimilar and softer metals such as aluminium, brass and copper and is caused by allowing the liquid coolant to become an electrolyte which is akin to weak battery acid. Best engineering practices have shown that even with a good inhibitor a coolant's resistance to 'electrolysis' is much weaker in its ability to effectively last longer than 2 years -- which is why I have serious doubts about a coolant additive that is advertised to last up to 10 years. However you can easily safeguard your system by, firstly, ensuring that your radiator gas a good connection to battery earth -- via a wire if need be. And secondly by using your trusty voltmeter -- digital is best. Have the coolant up to working temperature and [with due regard] remove the rad. cap. Insert the positive probe into the coolant [provided your system is negative earthed -- and visa versa if not] and the neg. probe to a good known earth point. If the reading is point 3 [0.3v] of a volt, or above, then you have 'electrolysis' and need to correct it.

Lastly -- torquing and re-torquing; best engineering practices.
Torque up the cold head to the relevant foot pounds; then run the engine at a fast idle till it reaches operating temperature -- probably a sack or blanket over the front of the tractor would help during your cold weather.Turn engine off and leave for about 2 hours till cooled down; then re-tension.
Sounds simple and straight forward -- but is it?
First up; how accurate is your torque wrench? -- the industry standard is plus or minus 5% and certified testing every 12 months. My wrench is about 25 years old and was last used some 5 years ago. Even though it was made to industry standards I suspect it has slipped to about 7 or 8% below standard which I make allowances for.
Then there is 'galling' which can quite easily lose you about 12% of your intended tension. What is it? It is where the under surfaces of the bolt head or nut and the contact surfaces of the cyl. head start to fuse together and rip out molecules of metal from both surfaces whilst tensioning up. And to stop this is lubrication -- but not any old oil; and certainly not engine oil.
Over the last many decades there have been advances in suitable machine oils as research has highlighted and overcome problems in previous formulae. Rather than the former copper based oil standard it has now got molybdenum instead which erases the tendency to gall. It should go without saying that the whole thread should be liberally covered with machine oil to be effective.
One final point in helping to obtain the most accurate tensioning -- which will not now help this project engine. All the threads on bolts and nuts, plus those in the cylinder head should be subjected to cleaning by using taps and dies with the block threads being blown out with an air hose.

Pavel

Some very good and interesting points there Pavel, always nice to hear other people's views and practices. And as the saying goes, every day is a school day! What are your views on piston ring gaps? I was taught many years ago (by a very good mechanic) that when installing pistons never have the ring gaps on the thrust side of the bore, but i have only ever spoken to a handful of people who agree with that, most just raise their eyebrows at me and say they have never heard of doing it and that its rubbish. I still do it the way I was taught, right or wrong

Pavel wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 14, 2022 5:40 pm

Lastly -- torquing and re-torquing; best engineering practices.
Torque up the cold head to the relevant foot pounds; then run the engine at a fast idle till it reaches operating temperature -- probably a sack or blanket over the front of the tractor would help during your cold weather.Turn engine off and leave for about 2 hours till cooled down; then re-tension.

Agree 100%, doing the torquing when hot will distort the bolts, we learned the hard way with Super Billy's tappet clearance adjusters, which had been overtightened by a previous owner and we found it impossible to get them to fit as the heat had distorted them at the setting they were at.

John b wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 14, 2022 6:58 pm

I was taught many years ago (by a very good mechanic) that when installing pistons never have the ring gaps on the thrust side of the bore, but i have only ever spoken to a handful of people who agree with that, most just raise their eyebrows at me and say they have never heard of doing it and that its rubbish. I still do it the way I was taught, right or wrong

I hadn't thought of this one John, but I think it makes perfect sense, as the ring gap is a weakness and giving it the thrust will only weaken it more; something neglected engines will notice quite soon after rebuild.
Sandy

The point about "galling" is the reason why many mechanics back off the nut/bolt about a quarter turn before re-torquing again. Many engines will have washers under the bolt heads or nuts, or they will have flanged bolts and / or nuts, and this feature also reduces the tendency of the nut or bolt to stick to the cylinder head.

It goes without saying that the thread bores should be cleaned either by running a tap or die over them or using a spare head bolt or nut, then blow the thread bores clean with the airline. Strangely enough some workshop manuals caution against oiling the bolts or nuts before installation, I do not know the reason for this, but personally I always oil the threads but give time for excess oil to drip off before installation to avoid the issue of oil getting trapped in the bottom of the thread bore and hydraulicking when the bolt is tightened down which could lead to a cracked block.

Another point is that some of the best engine experts I know will say that for cast iron heads the head should be re-torqued when the engine is hot, this is because the steel head bolts expand more than the cast head, so that after re-torquing as the engine cools the bolts will be under increased tension, however as the engine is run up to temperature again the bolts will expand more than the head and the bolts will revert to true torque.
The opposite is true for aluminium cylinder heads, aluminium expands more than the steel head bolts so aluminium heads should always be torqued up and re- torqued when the engine is cold.

With regard to ring gaps, I also do not set any gaps on the thrust side of the piston at 90 degrees to the engine longitudinal line. I seem to remember that the early Land Rover Series workshop manual makes a point about avoiding this and my father always used make the point as well. Workshop manuals will advise that ring gaps should be spread evenly around the piston, so it is impossible to avoid ANY ring gaps on the thrust side of the piston, but a gap at 90 degrees to the engine line on the thrust side must be avoided.

That's what i was meaning, as you say it's impossible to avoid gaps on the whole thrust side, just not at 90°. I have also watched a couple of people rebuilding engines using an air wrench, always makes me cringe