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Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:32 pm
by JDisanza
Working on a '60 FPM project tractor. In attempting to properly time the fuel injector pump I could not get anywhere near the proper position when the flywheel was at the right setting (23 degrees btdc). Knowing that the tractor had been through some previous work I pulled the cover off the crank, cam, gears to make sure they were set correctly and they were. When those gears are in proper alignment with their respective timing marks the injector pump will be in proper alignment with it's timing marks and all looks good...however the flywheel timing marks are way off as in nowhere to be seen. My question: is it possible that the flywheel could have been installed incorrectly? Shouldn't the crank/cam timing marks when in alignment, be relatively near the TDC mark on the flywheel? BTW when those Crank/cam timing marks align the engine is in it's proper compression stroke.
Thanks
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:38 pm
by Billy26F5
The timing gear marks line up at TDC no. 1 compression, you should see a TDC mark on the flywheel at the same time. If you don't you'll need to investigate further, I recommend you remove the sump and have a look at everything there. Some pics would help too.
Sandy
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:08 pm
by SvendH
What about the pump clutch ajustment,have you tried ajusting that?
Svend
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:25 pm
by John b
It is possible that the flywheel has been installed incorrectly at some time in the past if position dowels were missing. As Sandy says, when piston no1 is at tdc you should see the timing marks, if not the flywheel is installed in the wrong position
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:22 pm
by Billy26F5
I'm thinking he might have the dowels missing on the crank and possibly the wrong auxilliary shaft or injector pump coupling, but we need pics to find that out. If it's none of those it sounds rather worse, but hopefully it's not.
Sandy
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:14 am
by JDisanza
SvendH wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:08 pm
What about the pump clutch ajustment,have you tried ajusting that?
Svend
Yes there wasn't anywhere near enough adjustment. The proper position was off by abut 90 degrees.
Thanks for your response.
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 4:46 am
by Billy26F5
Could you post a pic of the pump coupling please? You might well have a coupling from a different kind of engine, or indeed from a minimec for a non minimec or vice-versa.
Sandy
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:16 am
by SvendH
On my super which is a minimec type i Am currently running a vacume unit.when i was setting her up i found that the coupling had to be retarded to near the limit of ajustment before the timing was right.
90 degrees still seems WAY out though?
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:39 pm
by John b
Minimec pumps have the timing pointer on top, the vaccuum pumps have it on the side so there is 90° difference, as Sandy says it's possible to have the wrong coupler fitted
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:56 pm
by henk
Could it be that the pump is 180 degrees wrong?
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:39 pm
by Billy26F5
I don't think you could be as close as 90 degrees if the pump is 180 degrees out.
Sandy
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 5:01 am
by JDisanza
I’ll try to post some pics tomorrow.
Thanks for the interest.
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:08 am
by JDisanza
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OK ..so the first photo (top) shows the crank/cam gears timing marks in alignment. You'll have to expand the pic to see the actual marks.The lower left of that photo is a camera showing the flywheel through the inspection site with no timing marks in view. so it all looks good except the flywheel timing marks aren't where they should be .
The second pic shows the pump with the above settings in timing alignment and properly seated in the coupling while in coordination with pic 1 settings.
Third photo is with the flywheel at 23 btdc and no way I can get proper alignment with the pump and coupling.
The last photo shows the timing marks way out of sync at the crank/cam gears while the camera shows the timing marks at 23 btdc.
I'd hate to split this machine , but I'm leaning that way as I'm becoming less and less confident of the previous work.
Thanks all for your responses.
P.S. Hope the images come through
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 8:03 am
by Emiel
Hi,
Might be I’m wrong, but when in pic 1 your engine is on tdc, and in pic 3 on 23 degrees btdc then I should still see the key on the crankshaft?
Rgds emiel
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 9:57 am
by SvendH
Is cyl 1 at TDC with both valve shut(rockers loose). This on the third photo.
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:17 am
by Billy26F5
Emiel wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 8:03 am
Might be I’m wrong, but when in pic 1 your engine is on tdc, and in pic 3 on 23 degrees btdc then I should still see the key on the crankshaft?
You should see the key some 20 degrees anticlockwise from the front, this engine is not.
Try getting the engine on TDC then turn it through 337 degrees clockwise from the front and see if the pump looks ok for timing. Then see if you can lower the sump and see what the flywheel is up to, I'm afraid you probably will have to remove the flywheel; when you refit it get the engine on TDC and get the TDC mark on the flywheel in line with the inspection cover. Do remember to do this so that you check the pump when cylinder no. 1 is on compression (all timing marks line up), the flywheel can also be fitted when the timing marks are exactly opposite (compression TDC cylinder no. 4). Just to be sure you get the pump fitted the right way round, the spill mark should be lining up when the coupling clamp bolt is below and away from you as in your second pic.
Sandy
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:34 am
by SvendH
SvendH wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 9:57 am
Is cyl 1 at TDC with both valve shut(rockers loose). This on the third photo.
I meant near TDC.
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 11:09 am
by Billy26F5
SvendH wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:34 am
SvendH wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 9:57 am
Is cyl 1 at TDC with both valve shut(rockers loose). This on the third photo.
I meant near TDC.
The point of it being at TDC is to get the flywheel aligned correctly, as it seems the dowels are not doing their job. I think trying to set it like that will allow other problems to be solved if they're there.
Sandy
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:49 pm
by JDisanza
All the pics had No1 cylinder at the compression stroke.
In the final pic the key on the crank gear was simply out of site. My finger is pointing to a timing mark in that pic. Way out...
Thanks for all the questions. I'll be splitting this apart and posting my findings.
Additionally I'm going to want to rebuild my injection pump. Does anyone know of a vendor in the States that does this work ? Or Canada maybe ? Parts are scarce over here.
Thanks
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:52 pm
by JDisanza
Correction! The final pic with the flywheel at 23 btdc the intake valve is not fully closed which I think is correct.
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:02 pm
by SvendH
JDisanza wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:52 pm
Correction! The final pic with the flywheel at 23 btdc the intake valve is not fully closed which I think is correct.
Wrong. At the firing point both valves must be closed. Looks like the flywheel must be on wrong! How did someone manage to do that???
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:05 pm
by SvendH
SvendH wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:02 pm
JDisanza wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:52 pm
Correction! The final pic with the flywheel at 23 btdc the intake valve is not fully closed which I think is correct.
Wrong. At the firing point both valves must be closed.
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:09 pm
by JDisanza
Well my thinking was if closed at TDC wouldn't the intake valve not be full seated yet at 23 before tdc?
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:15 pm
by SvendH
JDisanza wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:09 pm
Well my thinking was if closed at TDC wouldn't the intake valve not be full seated yet at 23 before tdc?
That much overlap?
Re: Timing issue/Flywheel install
Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:33 pm
by JDisanza
If fully closed at TDC why would it be fully closed at that point before TDC ? Certainly on the way to be fully closed.. just not there yet. Not arguing just not getting it.