Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

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Soukup
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Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by Soukup »

On my Power Major I can not achieve more than 1400 revs. Even when im stationary without any load. Based on informations here I tried to disconnect the air hose from the air inlet. Then I managed to get 2000 revs no problem. Then I inspected the air cleaning unit and found the steel filter completely clogged with gunk. I soaked the filter in petrol for night, cleaned thoroughly. I then reassembled the air hose to the air cleaner and tried to start without the oil bath and filters. Again 2000 revs. So I was happy that the reason might be only the clogged filter restricting air flow. Im assuming now that the air hose should be ok, when it worked with it.

Today I reassembled everything, topped the oil to the line and again only 1400.. I needed to take some wood from the forest with the tractor and after coming back I dissassembled the whole thing again and found aprox. 1,5cm of oil gone and found oil in the air hose. So the engine is sucking the oil through filters.

I noticed that the air filter has only one layer of the steel filter(the removable), the rest to the top is "chiseled out" there are only some very sharp remains.

Did someone had something similar? What could be the issue?

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John b
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by John b »

I would say it's time to replace your whole filter, if the inside has been 'butchered' it will change the way the air flows through it and could well be the reason it's picking the oil up from the bowl
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by Billy26F5 »

I would start by removing and dismantling the filter, if you can post lots of pics we might catch what's wrong, but as John says, a replacement filter will get you running sooner. I would consider trying to fix the filter but it will take longer than a replacement one.
Sandy
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Soukup
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by Soukup »

Well the situation is even more complicated by the fact, that previous owner wanted to use some bigger battery, so he moved the whole air cleaner unit closer to the intake and shortened the hose. Dont know if that could make some difference.
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The air cleaner look like this:
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I have never seen the inside before, the amount of gunk is quite alarming.

I will probably order new air cleaner. The thing is that i dont know if how this affects the loss of power/ unability to rev. the engine higher than 1400.

John b
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by John b »

I think you have 2 problems here, the wire mesh has been removed from the filter so there is nothing stopping the oil being sucked into the engine, but also the filter is far too close to the engine. The oil in the filter is not meant to get hot, but being so close to the engine it is heating up and getting thinner making it even more prone to being sucked in. It's hard to see on the pic but you should have a solid bulkhead between the engine and the filter that prevents the heat getting to the filter and battery. The gunk is from the engine breather coming from the rocker cover, this is just oily fumes coming from the engine, another reason not to let the filter get hot, the heat is baking the oily fumes into tar. If it runs ok with the pipe off, then a new filter put back where it's meant to be should sort all your problems
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by Billy26F5 »

The position of the filter shouldn't be relevant (think about the Dexta John, the filter is not really sheltered yet there's no trouble with heat, and Billy's air hose has lots of condensation on it after ploughing showing just how cold it is to spite being an inch or so from the hot exhaust manifold), it is recoverable but you will need new mesh. Have you adjusted the high rev throttle screw on the manifold? You shouldn't really run above 1600 rpm, although you need to set the no load speed at 1800 rpm with the air filter fitted and in good condition. What does the bowl look like? The dirt in there is quite normal, although you are right to want it clean.
Sandy
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John b
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by John b »

The Dexta filter is closer but the engine breather doesn't go into the filter (at least i don't think it does). I think the combination of no gauze, hotter thinner oil and oily fumes being dried out by the heat is the problem. You are probably correct Sandy that if the gauze was intact it wouldn't happen, but i think the heat drying out the engine fumes and clogging the gauze was probably the reason it was removed, so if a new filter is fitted in the same place then the engine breather needs removing from it and just running to the floor, same as the Dexta
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by Billy26F5 »

John b wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:09 pm
The Dexta filter is closer but the engine breather doesn't go into the filter (at least i don't think it does).
You're right about that, but Davie was converted to have it going into the air filter (long before we had him), and it's made no difference to his running. I would expect the gauze was removed for cleaning and then the tractor was sold without the gauze. The condition of the bowl might also tell us something else.
Sandy
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John b
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by John b »

I suppose engine wear and the amount of oil being breathed might be a factor, but as you say, re-packing the filter with appropriate gauze should be possible
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

John b
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by John b »

Looking at the pic again i still think the filter is way too close, it's touching the exhaust manifold. The oil in the filter must be nearly boiling, if nothing else the engine is drawing in hot air, not ideal for combustion and efficiency.
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by Billy26F5 »

I don't see it touching the manifold, I would say it's about 1" away from it. I still think that there's no problem for the filter being there as it has a high flow of cold air going through it that won't notice the exhaust temperature much at all. Having said that I would move it back anyway so it fitted in properly, but if Soukup needs his Power Major back at work urgently it should be fine where it is for now.
Sandy
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John b
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by John b »

The pipe looks a little bit suspect at the manifold end (or is it just my failing eyesight!) maybe it's collapsing in causing a restriction? Something is partially blocking the airflow to the engine when its all connected
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by Billy26F5 »

I can't see the pipe collapsing but it's definitely something to look out for as well, as it's well known for causing slow running.
Sandy
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shepp
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by shepp »

I think both points raised have validity. The oil bath air cleaner works by drawing air in at high speed down towards the oil in the bath. At that point the air has to change direction by 180 degrees, large dirt particles in the intake air are unable to do that and most (but not all and not all straw particles ) become stuck in the oil. The high speed air hitting the oil surface creates an oil mist and this is drawn up with the air as it changes direction and heads up through the wire mesh, this oil mist is normally taken out by the wire meshing and then the sticky wire meshing takes out most of the remaining finer particles of dust and also bits of straw and similar. Any excess oil will drip back into the oil bowl when the engine is stopped. However in this case there is no wire meshing! So the oil mist and finer dust and fibre particles continue up through the empty carcass of the air cleaner body and through the hose into the inlet manifold and into the engine. It seems that someone has chiseled out the mesh as it had become blocked, probably with straw or similar. What I do when that happens is to remove the air cleaner from the tractor, stand it on a safe hard surface away from anything combustible, pour some petrol down through the air outlet to soak the mesh and the trapped debris and carefully fire it. This might need to be done a few times, tap the cleaner body on the hard standing when it has cooled to dislodge the burnt debris and fire again if necessary. Usually the paint on the outside escapes bad damage.

With the air cleaner bowl so close to the exhaust manifold the oil will be hotter and thinner and more easily turn to a mist and be drawn into the engine and burned. So I agree, a new air cleaner and move it back to it' s original position as manufactured.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Billy26F5
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by Billy26F5 »

shepp wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:27 pm
I think both points raised have validity. The oil bath air cleaner works by drawing air in at high speed down towards the oil in the bath. At that point the air has to change direction by 180 degrees, large dirt particles in the intake air are unable to do that and most (but not all and not all straw particles ) become stuck in the oil. The high speed air hitting the oil surface creates an oil mist and this is drawn up with the air as it changes direction and heads up through the wire mesh, this oil mist is normally taken out by the wire meshing and then the sticky wire meshing takes out most of the remaining finer particles of dust and also bits of straw and similar. Any excess oil will drip back into the oil bowl when the engine is stopped. However in this case there is no wire meshing! So the oil mist and finer dust and fibre particles continue up through the empty carcass of the air cleaner body and through the hose into the inlet manifold and into the engine. It seems that someone has chiseled out the mesh as it had become blocked, probably with straw or similar. What I do when that happens is to remove the air cleaner from the tractor, stand it on a safe hard surface away from anything combustible, pour some petrol down through the air outlet to soak the mesh and the trapped debris and carefully fire it. This might need to be done a few times, tap the cleaner body on the hard standing when it has cooled to dislodge the burnt debris and fire again if necessary. Usually the paint on the outside escapes bad damage.
Very good description of the working. I think we need to see the bowl to confirm what is wrong here.
Sandy
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Soukup
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by Soukup »

Well, when i got the tractor, I cleaned the bowl completely and filled with oil. It was nearly empty and very dirty. Now it looks like this.
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I will order the air cleaner. I already have new air hose. It will be a bigger operation though, there is a bracket welded on the battery platform to allow mounting of the bigger battery. The wall between engine and battery is also cutted. I need to figure out some way of fixing the filter where it bellongs.
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Still im not really convinced that it will solve the revs problem. But it is a first step.

John b
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by John b »

There seems to be a 2 views on the oil level in the bowl. Some say the air should pass through the oil in the bowl, while i was always taught that the level should be just below the bottom of the intake pipe so the air turns 180° over the top of it as Shepp describes. I have always filled the bowl to the level of the 6 holes between the 2 chambers, but looking at 3 different Major filters bowls, one is clearly marked 'oil level' with arrows to the line in the side. This level definitely puts the oil above the bottom of pipe which seems wrong to me, surely this adds restriction to the air flow and increases the risk of oil being sucked into the engine. Maybe i was taught wrong, but i have spoken to alot of others who agree with me, and some who don't. Be interesting to hear other views on it, if the level marked is too high, it could explain some of the problems Soukup is having
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My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

John b
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by John b »

Looking at an old Ferguson manual it says the bottom of the tube should be immersed in the oil, so maybe i am completely wrong, the older i get the easier i get confused!
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by Billy26F5 »

As there are several kinds of filter (two main groups made by AC and Burgess) it's quite possible that parts have been mixed up and the level is wrong. Having said that, the bowl and removable mesh that Soukup has are the same as Billy's ones which work fine. I think the oil level should be below the pipe but only just, to catch all the dirt.
As for returning the filter to its original position I had already thought that it would be a big job as there has been a major change to the firewall and battery tray, the air hose would also need to be replaced when you get there. I would start by getting the replacement mesh for the filter body, then seeing if that sorts the oil being sucked in, when that's sorted you can try to reset the high rev throttle screw on the manifold.
Sandy
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Emiel
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

The oil level is lower when the engine runs.

When I do service my combine I have to move it away from its parking position. After the engine has run I clean the air filter.

A terrible lot of oil drips out of the gauze after I remove the bowl. I always put a container below the filter.

If there is not enough gauze in the top oil will be sucked into the engine easily.

I allways fill up to the correct mark on my fords, hanomag, lanz etc and do not recognise oil sucking into
Engine. I always use a cheap 15w30.

IMHO fill up to the marks or per the manual If the oil touches the tube or not is something the designers already have taken into account. I wouldn’t be to afraid to overfill a little. The engine will only take the amount you put in too much until the oil level is decreased to its optimum where the filter is designed for.
If your tractor takes all the oil out there is something wrong, like no or incorrect gauze.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

Billy26F5
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by Billy26F5 »

Emiel wrote:
Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:06 pm
Hi,

The oil level is lower when the engine runs.

When I do service my combine I have to move it away from its parking position. After the engine has run I clean the air filter.

A terrible lot of oil drips out of the gauze after I remove the bowl. I always put a container below the filter.

If there is not enough gauze in the top oil will be sucked into the engine easily.

I allways fill up to the correct mark on my fords, hanomag, lanz etc and do not recognise oil sucking into
Engine. I always use a cheap 15w30.

IMHO fill up to the marks or per the manual If the oil touches the tube or not is something the designers already have taken into account. I wouldn’t be to afraid to overfill a little. The engine will only take the amount you put in too much until the oil level is decreased to its optimum where the filter is designed for.
If your tractor takes all the oil out there is something wrong, like no or incorrect gauze.
Agree 100%, Soukup is missing the mesh in the filter body so that is a clear factor that has caused this to happen to him. I think that should sort the problem with the oil, the high reving is a different problem and it requires the filter to have been fixed before trying to fix it.
Sandy
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John b
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by John b »

It might well cure the high revving too, he said it revs to 2000 with the air pipe removed. The local lads hauling hops back to the farm used to remove the air pipes on the Majors when they got to the road as they revved higher and were faster without the filter connected
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by Billy26F5 »

John b wrote:
Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:40 pm
It might well cure the high revving too, he said it revs to 2000 with the air pipe removed. The local lads hauling hops back to the farm used to remove the air pipes on the Majors when they got to the road as they revved higher and were faster without the filter connected
Removing the air hose will reduce the time till a major overhaul even on the road, that's why I can only advise against any running without the filter in good condition, however short the run may be.
Sandy
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John b
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by John b »

I agree, i wouldn't run one without the filter either. The lads who used to do it didn't own the tractors so didn't care about the consequences, the boss wasn't too happy when he found out what they were doing though!
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

shepp
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Re: Low engine revs + air cleaning issue

Post by shepp »

The thing is that once a proper new or unrestricted air cleaner with correct oil level and a new inlet manifold hose has been fitted, then we can be confident that the air supply side of the inlet manifold venturi is up to specification. The maximum no load engine speed can then be set to 1800rpm by the adjusting screws on the venturi. The vacuum effect on the governor diaphragm and spring is brought about and controlled by the difference between the vacuum on one side of the venturi to the other side of the venturi - one vacuum pipe enters above the venturi and one below. If the air supply side is out of spec it will affect how the venturi controls the governor.

As far as oil levels go I have always thought that the level should be just below the intake, I will dig out my old Ferguson handbooks and have a look what they say following John' s comment.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

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