Transporting a thermostat

This forum is for the Fordson New Major, including the Super Major and the Power Major.
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Billy26F5
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Transporting a thermostat

Post by Billy26F5 »

Hi all,
A while ago we got two thermostats for Billy and Super Billy (one each), they are genuine AC ones and this got us into a dilema for bringing them here. In normal circumstances we would fly them home, but the 4lb pressure limit on them made us leave them behind for now. Can we fly them or will they need to be driven back home? Any opinions are welcome, but I want to be sure about this before we find they're damaged after flying them back.
Sandy
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John b
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by John b »

Hi Sandy, i would say that if the stat is in the closed position it would be far less likely to be affected by outside pressure, if it's fully open the bellows are more vulnerable as they have alot more suface area to be crushed inwards. I wouldn't be concerned by the pressure on a closed stat, but thats just me!
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

shepp
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by shepp »

Now that's a good question! I suppose the answer lies in exactly what pressure the cabin of the the aircraft is raised to during the flight, something that the aircraft operator might be able to answer.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Billy26F5
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by Billy26F5 »

Thanks very much John and Shepp.
As far as I know the cabin pressure is lower than normal when at high altitude, and gradually equalises as you come down; as John says the thermostats will be closed, the temperature remaining some 100ºF below the opening temperature. The minimum pressure allowed is the equivalent of 10000 ft altitude, below that the masks are set to come down, I'm not sure if that is within the limits of the thermostat though. It's also woth noting that these thermostats were used on all Major's including the high altitude 2WD Super 6 and Roadless equivalent, which I think were built for higher altitudes than 10000 ft.
Sandy
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John b
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by John b »

The only answer i can come up with is that water is more dense than air and not compressable. If you have 2 plastic bottles, one filled with water and one with air, both at 4 psi the one with air in will still be 'squeezable' but the one with water in will be solid. So by my reckoning, as the stat has a 4 psi limit in water, 4 psi of air would have less effect on it. I may be way off with my reasoning though, physics lessons at school was a very long time ago!
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Old Hywel
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by Old Hywel »

4 psi is 4 psi whatever the medium.
I’m puzzled though, where has this pressure limit come from?

John b
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by John b »

Bellows type thermostats were not meant to be used in cooling systems over 4 psi as any pressure above that could cause the bellows to collapse
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

shepp
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by shepp »

The cooling systems of Majors using the bellows thermostat are not pressurised, the radiator cap is not a pressure cap. Pressure in a fluid is related to depth times density plus (if relevant) the atmospheric pressure above the fluid, so in the unpressurised Major cooling system the small head of water above the thermostat level will not contribute much to the pressure on the bellows, so the pressure on the bellows will be just above the normal atmospheric pressure of 15 psi - say no more than 20 psi. If there is a recommendation of no more than an extra 4 psi in a pressurised cooling system as John says, this would then suggest the bellows should be OK up to an external air pressure of about 24 psi whilst in transit - but don't quote me!
AC bellows thermostats for the Majors were TF shrouded types for Mk 2 heads onwards and TC non shrouded types for Mk 1 heads, with different number recommendations for summer and winter use in the AC catalogue - but I doubt very much anyone would change the stat from summer to winter!
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Billy26F5
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by Billy26F5 »

Ford did start with a 4lb pressure cap as std., they even offered a 7lb one at one time, but the pressure cap became an option in Britain when the first change in thermostat happened in 1954, when a cooler one (161ºF) was used (the TC2 instead of the TC3 from AC). From the Mk2 introduction, the shrouded thermostat appeared, and the opening temperature was retured to the original 176ºF (the AC TF2), and this became the case for Mk1 thermostats too (the AC TC3 was back), there were no changes after this. I'm not comenting on the other manufacturer catalogues because I haven't found much about them, but they would be the direct equivalent ones, the Smiths ones were probably dominant from what I've read. We do have 4lb pressure caps, and Davie is fine, still on his original thermostat as far as I know (an AC TF3 or equivalent).
For the moment the conclusion appears to be that they would be fine in flight, but any other opinion is welcome.
Sandy
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shepp
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by shepp »

The TC 2 is still generally available as new old stock, but the TF shrouded type is harder to find. I do have a few TF 4 types which I have accumulated for future use and which are used in the Trader truck with a higher opening temperature.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Emiel
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by Emiel »

Please sit down in a solid chair before opening this link
https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/thermosta ... 07590.html
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

Billy26F5
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by Billy26F5 »

I've seen plenty of TC2 and TC3 on ebay, but only one TF2 and no TF3s (the Dexta one, used for all of them), a few TF4s including a Smiths version. We actually got TF4s as well, no TF2s being around at that time, unfortunately a few appeared just after we got the TF4s. Good to know that the lorry engine has this thermostat. I remember Adrian posted a few years ago about the best temperatures for a diesel engine being around 200ºF, so it won't be too bad a change, especially for Billy with his 10 fins per inch radiator!
Superb find Emiel, but that is only for Dexta's, we'll need to see if they make a Major one as well as non shrouded ones (although the modern replacements are ok in place of non shouded original ones).
Sandy
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Billy26F5
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by Billy26F5 »

Curiously, Ebro never used a shrouded thermostat to spite having had them sold in Mk2 Major's just before they started producing parts themselves. They used an equivalent of the AC TC3, made by a company called Movi, part no. 1010. I think Super Billy had one of these before he came up.
Sandy
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Billy26F5
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by Billy26F5 »

Well in the end we brought them, to be honest my biggest concern was actually security because of the motor fluid but we were very lucky, but it is worth having that in mind. They actually flew twice on pretty empty flights so they would have got as much stress as they would get from a normal flight. Once back we tested them, and here are some pics (and as usual they're not great):
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As you might or might not see the thermostats did open, one at 185ºF and the other at 189ºF. This made it quite easy to decide which one for each tractor, the cooler one is now in Super Billy, to spite the engine not yet being fitted. The hotter one is for Billy as and when he needs it.
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Sandy
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John b
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by John b »

Good to see they are working ok Sandy. I wonder how much hotter the engine runs without a shrouded thermostat? The Leyland 4/98 engine (also in many JCBs) will overheat with the wrong or no thermostat fitted, the correct one has a disc on the bottom to close off the bypass hose when it opens
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by Billy26F5 »

Unfortunately I can't answer that easily. I think Mr MacGregor has the right thermostat, as his temperature is fine, although he struggles to get hot with the heater on. I suspect it will be similar with Major's (noticeably higher temperature) though not quite as exaggerated as the 4/98 because I don't remember Super Billy overheating before the big end got too bad to run, and anyway Ebro never used the shrouded type I don't know why.
Sandy
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Kjetil
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by Kjetil »

Hi
Anybody tried to measure the cooling water temperature on the engine?
I have a NPSM and would like to measure the temperature a little more accurate than the original temp gauge.
On the top of the engine, there is an additional threaded hole that could be used
It would be easy to install a wireless sensor and a gauge, but a wired sensor would also be possible.
I haven't seen any threaded sensor that fits.
Thanks
Regards kjetil

Billy26F5
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by Billy26F5 »

I wouldn't recommend any electrical type as it would suffer inaccuracies due to the connections. If you think your temp gauge isn't accurate you can calibrate it but it is a delicate job and you'll need to be very patient about it. Once calibrated the original temp gauge is extremely accurate and will tell you the temperature at all times without using up battery.
Sandy
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Kjetil
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by Kjetil »

Sandy, you are right. I have no clue if it is accurate or not.
According to the Operators' Handbook the optimum performance for the cooling system should be maintained at a temperature of 160° - 190°F (71° - 88°C). This temperature is indicated by a green sector on the temperature gauge

I will try to put the sensor in hot water and see if it is possible to check the 160 and 190°F mark.

Above in this thread it is said the best temp for a diesel engine is 200°F (93°C).
Is this recommendation also valid for the Fordson?
I am curious since Operator handbook recommend max 190°F.

Billy26F5
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by Billy26F5 »

Adrian used a 200ºF thermostat and it worked fine for him, I would be fine with 190ºF but anything till close to 207ºF should be fine. If you can keep the temperature to the upper green sector you'll be fine.
Sandy
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Kjetil
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by Kjetil »

I did some snow blowing on Saturday. Outside temp was -5°C (23°F)
I have a temp gauge from Agriline having a blue sector (Fordson have green).
Needle was at the border between yellow and blue
If it is identical to the original Fordson gauge, this is 71°C (160°F).
I was driving in 1st gear, and high engine rpm, so I had expected the engine temp to be higher.
Ford propose to blanking off the radiator, so I will try this next time, to see if the temp will rise.

Billy26F5
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Re: Transporting a thermostat

Post by Billy26F5 »

Try using more power, as it's likely you can do the same job in a higher gear. Repro gauges are not made to original quality, so be careful with the readings. An NP Super Major at full power will only just have enough cooling with the original 5 fins per inch radiator in tropical temperatures. It looks to me that your thermostat is not hot enough, but see how the temp goes throughout the year before deciding what's wrong.
Sandy
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