Fordson SM Clutch Play

This forum is for the Fordson New Major, including the Super Major and the Power Major.
smchris
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Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by smchris »

Hello everyone.

I have a new symptom on my FSM (61) that's subtle, but noticeable to me as the regular user.

I was using the tractor to pull a fallen tree out of a hedge at the weekend; nothing too strenuous, just a big tree.

Since then, the play has disappeared in the clutch and it's become very "grabby"; there used to be a good bit of free play at the top of the pedal travel per the specs. Now the pedal comes almost to the top of the travel before biting point, and then it's almost all or nothing.

What are the likely causes, please, and how best to investigate?

Thanks

Chris

Billy26F5
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by Billy26F5 »

I would start by readjusting the free play, it does sound a bit like some lining on the friction plate has disintegrated, but if you say it still pulls hard I would readjust the free play and be careful until you find a good moment to have a look inside as you'll need to split the bell housing for that.
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smchris
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by smchris »

Thanks. That was my suspicion too, because it's changed abruptly. It's possibly even the original clutch, so it's probably getting towards EOL. While it's winter and we can afford some down time, I might bite the bullet and split it. It needs a few seals doing anyway, so this might be the stimulus I need...

What is the correct procedure for setting the free play on these?

Billy26F5
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by Billy26F5 »

I assume you have a single clutch (a dual clutch is much more complicated, if you do have one you'll find a stop pin in the pedal stop bracket) you need to change the length of the release rod by adjusting the clevis (slightly out of sight in the pic).
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Once you've got the setting do a test run and see what it's like.
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smchris
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by smchris »

No, it's a dual "live" clutch.

Billy26F5
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by Billy26F5 »

That makes this more complicated, but you adjust it with the same clevis. Remove the stop pin and check that when you press the pedal fully down the PTO just stops (adjust as required). Now fit the stop pin and see if there is any improvement, if not adjust to get correct free play and test the PTO again (be careful to ensure it doesn't bottom before the stop bracket or you'll be forced to dismantle the clutch now), if it doesn't stop now you'll have to avoid engaging the PTO with the engine running as the PTO clutch will not disengage, it will also be a good idea to leave the stop pin in place and I would recommend avoiding PTO work as if something happened you would have to stop the engine rather than press the clutch fully down (I wouldn't be at all reluctant to use the hydraulics in this situation). Then it's on to getting the clutch off when suitable.
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smchris
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by smchris »

Thanks; I don't follow this bit: "be careful to ensure it doesn't bottom before the stop bracket or you'll be forced to dismantle the clutch now" - can you explain a bit more for me?

C

Billy26F5
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by Billy26F5 »

When the rod is very short there's a very real danger of the levers hitting the PTO plate as a result, when that happens the pedal will not reach the stop bracket, and it will ruin the levers and the PTO plate if used at all like that. I don't think it's particularly likely that you'll be in that situation at the moment but you're better to know just in case.
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smchris
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by smchris »

Hi everyone.

I am a great believer in updates, so here I am. Apologies it's taken a little while.

I decided that the abrupt onset of clutch "grabbiness" must signal something amiss, so I bit the bullet and, with the help of a good friend, ventured within.

We got the clutch out and the problem was obvious: two of the adjacent spring retaining bolts had sheared off close to the heads on the flywheel side, and the aluminium cast bracket they were passing through had broken off at the bottom. The nuts were sitting in the bottom of the bell housing.

It was quite good we went in there because there was a lot of oil and other muck inside, likely a product of a knackered upper crankseal (I replaced the bottom half when we had the sump off for the rebuild 2 years ago, but we left the top and hoped for the best). There was also a lot of muck on the release bearing side, and the release bearing was toast - lots of play in there - so that came out too.

Then came the hard part : trying to get a new clutch; no one has any at the moment; seems that China being laid low by Omicron has put back the imports of things like Fordson double clutches.

Unless anyone has any leads on where I can get one? Otherwise I'm waiting another month or two...

At least the wait has given me a chance to clean up the oily mess in the clutch housing. I bought a cheap Chinese steam cleaner on eBay - works wonders against this stuff that is half way to becoming road surface!

Billy26F5
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by Billy26F5 »

It might be worth looking around for a good second hand one, but in the meantime I would check the pilot bearing as well, although it might be difficult to find a new one. If you suspect the input shaft seals are leaking I would fit new ones now too, as it's very easy at this point.
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smchris
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by smchris »

Great minds and all that - I've already obtained new seals on the input side! At the moment I'm steaming off the gunk so I can get to it to replace. That seal is definitely leaking because there's muck all down that rear housing, so it's been sweating for a long time. Pilot bearing is totally OK actually, surprisingly. Just the release bearing that had play.

Anyone know of a second hand clutch for sale?

My reservation with used ones is that fitting another one of the older design might see me back inside here again sooner than I'd like, if the same fault recurs; have you seen that they have changed the design of the unit completely since the original, presumably because what has happened to mine is a common failure point...

Billy26F5
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by Billy26F5 »

I have seen the new one, but I don't really know if it is a better clutch (I'm sure someone can confirm this). The aluminium covers would always break up under heavy loads, and Brian has talked of clutches exploding on NP Super Major's because they couldn't take the load. If you're not going to be doing very heavy work the original design is fine, but if you'll be working very hard I would see what people who've fitted the new design think about it before getting a new one.
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John b
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by John b »

There are a couple of complete dual clutches for sale on facebook marketplace
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

smchris
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by smchris »

I found one for the (horrendously expensive) going rate and bought it; it's in the post, I hope!

I have to say, the little £100 Chinese steam cleaner I got off eBay is terrific. Comes with a bunch of accessories including wire and nylon brushes, lance extension etc. Really good for cleaning stuff like mucky tractor innards! Recommended.

I'll let you know how I get on putting everything back together.

I need to sort out hydraulics next - lift arms drop slowly under load when pump (PTO) disengaged. It's useable, but I've got a flail for doing the hedges and verges and it's pretty heavy. I'm not keen to put that on there until the hydraulics are behaving. Range of possibilities for what's worn out - probably the main piston seal, but I'm not at all familiar with the hydraulic system on these tractors, so going in the top lid scares the life out of me.

smchris
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by smchris »

PS - Had a look on Marketplace just now - thanks for the suggestion, John, lots of useful temptations there! There is one clutch with what looks like the same pathology evolving as mine has: the ali casting is breaking up and cracking.

Billy26F5
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by Billy26F5 »

I would put the flail on the hydraulics and see how it behaves, I would never use the hydraulics for anything without the PTO engaged, I would stop to connect and disconnect the PTO shaft when relevant so the hydraulics are still functioning while driving around. This is where having a raised PTO is very handy indeed. If the hydraylics are bobbing up every few seconds or more often try pulling out the external service valve (have the clutch in and lower the main lever while you have this valve out to avoid stressing the relief valve and hydraulic pump) and see if the arms sink or stay put. This will tell you where the leak is, if the arms sink it's probably the piston seal, if they stay put it's one of the valves. If after allowing the arms to sink in gear you find it very difficult to get out of gear it's probably the check valve. once you decide what needs changing ensure you lift the top cover absolutely flat for the first 2" to avoid cracking the feed pipe bracket.
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shepp
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by shepp »

S J Spares who stock QTP parts and the new heavy duty replacement type dual clutch cover and plates appear to have stock. These are made by Kawe who manufacture in house and in Holland. The clutch pack which comprises the cover and transmission and PTO plates is £740 and the release bearing £27, both prices plus VAT.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

smchris
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by smchris »

Thanks Shepp.

I found one for £717, all in (inc vat) which turned up in 2 days flat.

Now, while I've got the machine apart, I have a new job and would appreciate advice please:

There is a fairly major oil leak (when running) from the front end. I suspect timing cover.

But how do I get the bloody thing off? There doesn't seem to be much room at the front end of the pulley to get a puller or anything on there. Tips gratefully received please...

Emiel
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by Emiel »

Hi, in your case I’d replace the clutch first, connect the engine back to the gearbox and then move the front axle with tombstone, radiator etc out of the way.

Then getting off the pulley should not be to difficult.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

smchris
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by smchris »

I thought you'd say that.

Billy26F5
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by Billy26F5 »

You don't need to remove the front casting, but it will be handy to get the radiator out of the way. It probably is simpler to do what Emiel says but if you don't want to lift heavy things more than you really need to you can just remove the front cowling and radiator. It is doable without removing anything but it's pretty tight and owkward.
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Emiel
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by Emiel »

I did a complete front end run away a couple of times with succes. You can save a lot of time that way. Removing front grille in the damp Dutch climate is recipe for desaster with most of the bolts breaking and leaving a hole to be drilled out.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

Billy26F5
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by Billy26F5 »

I was only saying it in case Chris doesn't want to lift heavy things again, but I do agree that it's easier to remove the whole front end. Probably similar in Britain, not as much here.
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shepp
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by shepp »

Clean the whole area up and be sure that it is the timing case oil seal first, it might be the half moon cork gasket on the sump front.
1946 E27N, 1952 Major Diesel, 1959 Power Major, 1962 Dexta, 1962 Super Dexta, 1963 Super Dexta NP, 1964 Super Major NP, 1965 Super Dexta 3000, 1966 Major 4000, 1967 3000 PF, 1994 5640,plus Basildon built NH.

Emiel
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Re: Fordson SM Clutch Play

Post by Emiel »

shepp wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:05 pm
Clean the whole area up and be sure that it is the timing case oil seal first, it might be the half moon cork gasket on the sump front.
That’s a nasty one indeed. Good point.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

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