Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

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Old52
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Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

My 1952 Petrol FM (Serial 1229858) seems to be making a lot of timing gear noise lately and I am also concerned about oil pressure changes when the engine is hot. On startup in 20C weather the oil pressure is typically about 40 psi, however when below 0C, it is only about 25-30 psi until the oil temperature comes up. Once the engine is warm (170F) the oil pressure holds at 40 psi for awhile but then tends to drop to 25-30 psi as the oil gets hotter. The oil pressure also seems to drop a bit a higher rpm (1500) and increase when the revs are brought down to 800-1000. When the engine and oil is hot, the pressure drops to 25-30 psi at idle. I am using an automotive 10W30 engine oil.

My questions are:

1. Are there known timing gear noise issues I should look for?
2. What might be the most likely low oil pressure causes (ie. camshaft journal wear, oil pressure relief valve issues, worn crank or big end bearings, oil pump wear) with these engines?

I am planning to rebuild the engine this spring, given that it has never been apart in 70 years, it is due. I know I can source big end and crank bearings, but am out of luck for pistons, liners, valves and guides for the petrol engine, although should be able to source those from various aftermarket suppliers (maybe).

I should note that the compression is 110 psi in each cylinder and the engine starts usually on the first crank even at -15C, so it's general health is good...

Looking forward to some thoughts, comments.

Cheers,

Bob

mathias1
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by mathias1 »

Bob,

is it smoking a lot, like burning oil?

When was the last time you dit an oil change?
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Emiel
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

Fluctuating oil pressure makes the removal of the sump inspection plate sound like a good idea to clean the filter.

A 10w30 would not be my choice. I use a 15w40 on mine and have heard about people tending to go for 20w50.

Had much pressure issues with a diesel last year after a rebuild . The relief valve didn’t close well (worn seat) but the fix was to measure the bearings. They were too loose. Fitted the right size according to the stamp, but they were stamped with the wrong size.

Please note, the pressure is measured on one single point in the oil gallery, but as the oil is in motion, the pressure is much higher at the pump and near the relief valve and (quite) a bit lower near the last main bearing. In other words, curing oil pressure problems with other oil doesn’t guarantee your lubrication is all right.

I would start with an oil change with new filter and cleaning out the suction filter. Also double check pressure with another gauge as well. If that doesn’t work drop the sump and plastigage one of the bearings. That gives an idea is easy to do.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

Billy26F5
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Billy26F5 »

Honestly I wouldn't disturb the engine if it's running that well, I might agree with checking the pressure gauge, but other than that clean the sump strainer inside the inspection plate and do an oil and filter change, I would recommend using oil closer to that specified in the manual. As long as the pressure doesn't drop lower you should be ok. If you suspect the relief valve needs an inspection (after changing the oil) don't forget it's threaded on the front mounting plate.
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

Thanks Gents for your replies and Happy New Year. The engine smokes a bit on startup (valve seals) but otherwise no other smoke, and it leaks more oil than it burns (I need to do front and rear main seals, clutch and transmission seals anyways, so the tractor will be getting split at least). I have cleaned the sump strainer a couple of times over the last 10 years probably, so I doubt that is an issue. I will change the oil to a heavier weight as a test, try some 20W50. In terms of the noises, I am concerned I am hearing maybe a bit of a knocking sound as well, but hard to tell with general engine noise. I can see about posting a video if that is possible for you to listen to...

I will also look into checking pressure with a 2nd pressure gauge as well.

I thought I had read something about possible timing gear issues/noises?

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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

I forgot to mention that recently installed an electronic tachometer and hour meter (the tach does not work well, but the hour meter is fine) to at least track hours between oil changes, but the tractor probably only gets about 25-30 hours of use per year and the last oil change was about 20 hours ago.

FYI, the tach/hour meter unit is one of the cheap ones that you just wrap a lead around one of the plug wires and it has its own internal battery. Simple to set up but the rpm jumps around alot, usually reading about twice what the actual rpm is...

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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Emiel »

Is yours a straight petrol or a petrol kerosene engine?
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

Billy26F5
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Billy26F5 »

I think you're meant to clean the strainer at least every oil change, which must be at the most every 200 hours. I think you should get a true Major hour counter, but your engine is too early for it. I would recommend you try to make an adaptor to fit an hour counter to your block. It won't be original but it will be reliable. If you do hear a knock it might be worth lowering the sump and looking at the bearings, but if there is a knock like that you're likely to see the oil pressure go down at the same time.
Emiel, I think Bob's tractor is petrol (Bob correct me if I'm wrong).
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Old52
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

Hi Sandy & Emiel:

Thanks for your reply and yes the engine is petrol (gasoline in Canada). I will look into getting an hour meter, but I think the distributor uses the drive that the hour meter on the diesel uses. As I only use it about 25-30 hours per year and change the oil yearly, I don't clean the screen every time, but will do it again now.

Is it possible to post a video on the forum?

Bob

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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by John b »

I have never dealt with a petrol engine so forgive me if i'm talking rubbish, but I have heard of the 3 bolts coming loose on the early camshaft gears on the diesel engines. The gear won't come off but it will eventually wear through the front casing and will cause a noise from the front of the engine. I would certainly remove the front cover and check that none of the timing gears have come loose if there is a noise coming from there, especially if you are doing some work on the engine anyway
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Billy26F5 »

Other people use youtube for videos, I haven't yet partly because our camera's sound is very poor. Your oil change frequency sounds very good, but I think it is definitely worth cleaning the screen every time, as then you'll catch the maximum amount of dirt. The camshafts are the same in the different engines (all three), so it could well be that the bolts are loose, but as Bob was going to do the front crank seal anyway (which is the same as the contemporary diesel one) it'll be a good time to check that.
Sandy
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by John b »

Sorry if i'm stating the obvious here but it's very important to only tighten the timing cover bolts to 12-15 ft/lbs, they are very soft and WILL snap off in the block if they are overtightened!
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Old52
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

Thank you Gents for your replies and I will keep you updated on the effects of the oil change to 20W50 and screen cleaning etc. on oil pressure, and will get to the front cover removal in the spring when the snow blowing requirement is over...

Bob

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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

The saga continues...the noise from the timing gears became a loud ticking sound, which I could hear even when turning the engine over slowly by hand. I took the distributor cap off and could see the rotor jump when the tick happened, so then I took off the valve cover and saw the pushrods also jump, so I am assuming that the camshaft is loose, allowing it to move suddenly when under pressure from the valve springs. I removed the rocker shaft, arms and pushrods and now there is no ticking sound when turning the engine over slowly...

I have removed the front end of the tractor (some 70 year old bolts and cotter pins did NOT want to come out...some swearing, hot torch, drilling and hammering required!) in order to access the timing gear cover. Now I am trying to figure out how to hold the crank in order to remove the crankshaft ratchet? The manual says "Remove the crankshaft ratchet and pulley using the turning bar (tool No. TTr/D 6319) to undo the crankshaft ratchet"
Any suggestions?

FYI, drained the oil and checked the sump screen, which was nice and clean. However, now that the engine is coming apart (at least the front cover) there is 70 years of sludge inside there that should be cleaned out too!

Bob

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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

Here are some pictures....

https://postimg.cc/gallery/90CnHw7

Old52
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »


Old52
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

Another question about attaching the engine to a lifting hoist. What are the lifting points to be used and what brackets might be needed? Any pictures would be helpful.

Thanks,

Bob

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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Billy26F5 »

Old52 wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:03 am
Now I am trying to figure out how to hold the crank in order to remove the crankshaft ratchet? The manual says "Remove the crankshaft ratchet and pulley using the turning bar (tool No. TTr/D 6319) to undo the crankshaft ratchet"
I would engage sixth gear and lock the brakes on, then use a suitably sized spanner to remove the rachet, you'll then need a puller to remove the pulley, once they're off the timing cover is a very easy removal. It does sound rather like the camshaft gears are loose, but I wouldn't dismantle any further unless you find trouble in there. I would then use something like paraffin to clean everything before reassembly. Just before reassembly coat everything in oil to ensure good lubrication.
Sandy
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Old52
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

Well not good news. I got the timing gear cover off and found the three bolts loose, one sheared off in the end of the camshaft, and the camshaft outer gear cracked at each hole. I will need to find another gear. There was no sign of the retainer other than a very small piece of it in the cover. Maybe when I take the sump off I will find more. I hope to salvage the camshaft at least. One tooth on the aux. drive shaft gear is chipped off, but the rest of the gear is fine. Pictures below.

https://postimg.cc/gallery/NQVZppD

It seems like all versions of this engine used the same camshaft gears, so that is good, but I will need to find an older one with the three bolts - E1ADKN-6256-B. Any ideas on where to find one of these?

Thanks,

Bob

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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old Hywel »

Is this what you want?
Uk eBay item number:195324225618
Incidentally, should there be a dowel fitted? I don’t see one.

On second thoughts, possibly not, it mentions injector pump.

Old52
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

Thanks for that and yes that is the correct type with the three bolts and the dowel, however, that is the inner gear and I need the outer larger one. I have contacted the eBay seller to see if they might have the larger one as well? The small one atttaches directly to the camshaft and drives the auxilairy shaft (oil pump, governor and distributor in the petrol engine), whereas the larger one in front, is driven by the crankshaft.

Thanks,

Bob

Old52
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

Here is a picture of the two camshaft mounted gears, with the smaller one fitting behind the larger, but both held by the dowel and three bolts into the camshaft...

Bob

https://postimg.cc/hzpCQ3V7

Old52
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

It looks like I found both gears on eBay and have purchased them...hopefully the shipping to Canada from the UK doesn't take too long and I can get her back together before the snow blowing season is over :)

Bob

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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by John b »

Hi Bob, I think I may have some timing gears somewhere if you get really stuck, not sure how much they would cost to ship from the UK though
John
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Billy26F5
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Billy26F5 »

That's quite a nasty case, but it could have been a lot worse. If you havent found bits in the timing cover it would suggest to me that at some point somebody messed around in there and didn't refit it. The chipped tooth isn't great but I would be less worried about it here than in a diesel engine. I don't think you'll find anything in the sump, but as it'll need to come off to do the rear crank seal anyway you can then have a look.
Sandy
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