Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

This forum is for the Fordson New Major, including the Super Major and the Power Major.
Old52
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

Hello Gents:

Today I received the two camshaft timing gears from the UK , via eBay, complete with 70 years of gunk on them, but they look OK and the dowel came with them. I have also found a good aux. drive gear and shaft, so will get all three gears replaced. I got the engine out and the sump off and found all of the pieces from the bolt retainer and tooth chip too. I took the engine into a local machine shop and they have determined that the crank needs to be ground and I will get 0.010" over liners for the rods and mains (Agriline has them). The pistons and bores are worn about 0.007-0.008" out so we are considering cleaning up the liners by 0.020" and getting oversize pistons. I have found a company in California that can make pistons (with new rings), so ideally I can get them made to the 3.740" (95mm) plus 0.020". My understanding is that the block is the same for the diesel and petrol engines, so if the diesel liners are 100mm bore and the gas are 95mm bore, then there is a lot of meat in the gas liners to be able to take 0.020" off of them.

Any experience using lockwashers and Loctite instead of the tab locks which are unavailable? I need a solution for the camshaft bolts and the flywheel bolts...

Here are some pics:

https://postimg.cc/gallery/jKwNpjV

Thanks,

Bob

Billy26F5
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Billy26F5 »

The block is the same, so diesel liners can definitely fit in the petrol block (make sure you get the earlier type). I would suggest making a locking tab as original and trying Loctite, but I don't know if it would do it. Probably a good idea to clean out the bell housing while you're there. Be careful with the crank, the early ones are cast and very fragile.
Sandy
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Emiel
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Emiel »

Good experience over here with lock tite and lock washers on the camshaft gear and front plate. I’d prefer to make lock tabs if I’d had the time and tools. It’s more original.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

Old52
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

Thanks for the replies. I'll keep you updated on the progress and I will definitely be cleaning the bellhousing etc.

Bob

Old52
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

Further inspection of things at the machine shop and it looks like it would be a good idea the change out the camshaft because the hole for the dowel has been ovaled from the thrashing around of the bolts and dowel. It looks like the camshaft is the same part number for the petrol and diesel engines, can anyone confirm that they are the same? This would be for an early three bolt version.

Thanks,

Bob

Billy26F5
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Billy26F5 »

The camshaft is indeed the same, unfortunately there are no new ones of this kind, (only the latest ones with one bolt and a key) but you should find a decent second hand one sooner or later.
Sandy
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Emiel
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

May be the machine shop can make the hole a bit larger in the camshaft and make a stepped dowel.

That’s worth a try I think.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

John b
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by John b »

You beat me to it Emiel, that would be my suggestion too
My biggest fear is that when i die my wife will sell my tractors for what i told her they cost

Old52
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

Surprising to me that the cam profile etc. is the same for all engines? Probably a fair bit of improvement could be had with the gas engine with a different profile...but not going to mess with it. Thanks for the suggestion of the stepped dowel, the problem is that the dowel hole is damaged enough that finding the proper centre would be tricky, so cam timing would be off probably (although I suspect that would have little effect). I have found a used cam (also in the UK...) so will probably go with that.

Thanks,

Bob

Billy26F5
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Billy26F5 »

In my opinion that is part of what made the Major so special, the fact that so many parts were the same for the three different engines that in most other cases would be completely unrelated. It would be interesting to see what would happen if there were less common parts as to how the engine would run, but I suspect Ford already did this before production started.
Sandy
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Old52
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

So some good progress now. New custom pistons have arrived from California and will be delivered to the machine shop on Monday. The shop is working on getting the liners at the proper height and square with the deck, one of them is sitting high on one side apparently. I fabricated a dolly for the transmission and have now split it from the rear axle. Having cleaned up the bellhousing, I removed the input shaft housing and don't like the feel of the front bearing or the amount of play in the shaft, so want to change that bearing. What has to be done to remove it? I assume the primary transmission needs to come out? I probably need to / should change both upper bearings in the primary transmission.

The rear seal was mostly gone I think, as there was a spring without any seal material left (see photo) and a thin ring/spacer behind it, which I am wondering if it was part of the old seal? There is a picture of the rear output bearing with the thin ring in place and then removed. The rear bearing feels OK.

The next challenge will be to remove and replace the front PTO seal. Is it easier to remove the shaft, or just pry out the old seal?

I found a new (NOS) distributor cap from the Distributor Doctor in the UK, so a new set of points, rotor, cap, condensor and advance springs are on the way, so I can get the distributor tuned up. I am also getting new carburetor gaskets and rebuild items through Cox and Turner (Martin Turner). They actually have valves and guides for petrol engines and piston rings, but not pistons...

I might get it back together and running in time to cut some grass this summer!

Bob

https://postimg.cc/gallery/fTWq088

Billy26F5
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Billy26F5 »

Looking very good. The bearing looks ok to me but I don't know how much play there is in that bearing, do bear in mind that you will get some from not having the front of the input shaft supported by the pilot bearing. The shaft should just pull out but be careful as if the bearing inside falls to bits (as roller bearings do sometimes) you might need to remove the gearbox, although you might be lucky and manage to get the rollers out from below as the PTO casting is off. I thoroughly recommend you have the belt pulley apperture open for this as you might even be able to see the rollers about to fall out. To do this you should have the box in low to give you good access just behind the input shaft. The output seal looks pretty poor, but at this stage it should be fairly easy to get that sorted. That ring is meant to be a separate part, part no E27N-7080. The seal is E27N-7082A and the gasket is E27N-7086. You should be able to get the PTO seal out without taking the shaft out, as there are several circlips to hold the bearings that could be a bit difficult to shift. You do have the advantage of having the early casting with removable plate. Good to know that Cox and Turner have all these parts.
Sandy
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Old52
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

Hi Sandy:

Thanks for your reply. Will the input shaft just pull out including the bearing? Is there a smaller bearing inside on the end of the shaft? I was assuming that the outer bearing would need to be pressed out from inside the primary gearbox. With regard to the PTO seal, is this the one that is supposed to have a double lip? The one I have received only has a single seal. I know there is another post somewhere that talks about the seals and the tools needed to R&R them, but I think the photos are no longer available. It would be great if there was a list of all the seal and bearing sizes needed.

Cheers

Billy26F5
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Billy26F5 »

Henk has a list of them but I can't remember where. Thie input shaft will just pull out with that large bearing, inside the gear there is a smaller roller bearing, the cup will come with the shaft while the rest of the bearing will stay in the gearbox, that's why I was warning you about rollers falling out.
The PTO seal on the NP is double lip, but on earlier tractors two single lip seals with the lips facing away from each other were used. Really a single lip facing the gearbox would do, as you'll never have the rear axlle leak into the gearbox, but Ford did use the idea of a double lip. I don't remember what post that was, but in any case the old seal can be completely destroyed in the process in needed.
Sandy
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Old52
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Old52 »

Hi Sandy:

I found an older post from Matias, who mentioned that the "needle" bearings on the upper shaft go, which I assume is the roller bearing you are referring to that the input shaft rides in? It would be #9 in the parts diagram. I will try pulling out the shaft and see what happens...

Bob

Billy26F5
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Re: Timing gear noises and oil presssure - petrol engine

Post by Billy26F5 »

I can't find that post at the moment. That roller bearing actually rides in the input shaft. I don't know what parts book you're referring to, and that means I can't look quickly as each one has its own numbering.
In theory there should be no problem, but roller bearings do sometimes like to fall apart.
Sandy
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