I well know there's little to do if it is in trouble, but I have hopes it will be ok.
Sandy
590E engine head problems
Re: 590E engine head problems
last night I removed the crankshaft.
All journals look shiny, but all main bearing journals reflect the oil groove of the bearing liner.
Most can be felt with a finger tip.
I did some quick measurements with a screw type micrometer, and the diameter differences between high spot (not worn where the oil groove is) and low spot (bearing contact) varies between approximately 0,015 mm and 0,03 mm.
In the shop manual pages (fordson.se) there are no dimensional tolerances mentioned (however, more recent Ford manuals do). So I can't cleary determine if I have to regrind the journals.
Only measure I can find about the main journals on page 15 of motor supplement:
The necessity to fit undersize internal diameter
liners may be established when the original liner
markings are not discernible by measuring the
crankshaft journals-size for standard liners is
3.0002 to 3.0010 ins. (76.205 to 76.225 mm.).
Does somebody know the wear tolerances for the journals when using STD bearings? Thank you in advance!
All journals look shiny, but all main bearing journals reflect the oil groove of the bearing liner.
Most can be felt with a finger tip.
I did some quick measurements with a screw type micrometer, and the diameter differences between high spot (not worn where the oil groove is) and low spot (bearing contact) varies between approximately 0,015 mm and 0,03 mm.
In the shop manual pages (fordson.se) there are no dimensional tolerances mentioned (however, more recent Ford manuals do). So I can't cleary determine if I have to regrind the journals.
Only measure I can find about the main journals on page 15 of motor supplement:
The necessity to fit undersize internal diameter
liners may be established when the original liner
markings are not discernible by measuring the
crankshaft journals-size for standard liners is
3.0002 to 3.0010 ins. (76.205 to 76.225 mm.).
Does somebody know the wear tolerances for the journals when using STD bearings? Thank you in advance!
Re: 590E engine head problems
From what you've posted I would suggest a regrind, bare in mind these engines were made in inches and therefore there might be some confusion with some of the measurements in millimeters. All sizes are specified at the end of the engine section (split into diesel and spark ignition and a supplement in two parts on fordson.se).
Sandy
Sandy
Re: 590E engine head problems
I don’t know the specified acceptable tolerance on the bearings unfortunately. I do have a story about oil pressure and oil pumps.
I once had a false stamped set of bearings. I needed 0,030 but they actually were 0,020. The engine ran perfect with perfect oil pressure when cold. After a short while the pressure dropped to a level of around 10 psi and a bit below. So a fresh rebuild engine had the same oil pressures as a quite worn engine.
So you need certainly less then this bearing clearance.
It took some time finding the cause of the low oil pressure. Didn’t measure the bearing play on assembly, assuming all would be right. Tested oil pump then, was good. Got a new oil pump from agriline. Same symptoms. Checked relief valve in distribution cover. That didn’t seal well on the seat. Cleaned that up and tested opening pressure. Found out that even when it opens around 5 bar it will be open with running engine and an awful lot of oil will flow through it. But still low pressure on the oil gallery. After measuring bearing clearances and correcting that with the right shells pressure was there with old and new pump.
I learned not to trust parts but measure, that the oil pump doesn’t wear as fast as the engine itself usually and that the relief valve doesn’t control oil pressure. The measures pressure gives a good indication on bearing wear.
I once had a false stamped set of bearings. I needed 0,030 but they actually were 0,020. The engine ran perfect with perfect oil pressure when cold. After a short while the pressure dropped to a level of around 10 psi and a bit below. So a fresh rebuild engine had the same oil pressures as a quite worn engine.
So you need certainly less then this bearing clearance.
It took some time finding the cause of the low oil pressure. Didn’t measure the bearing play on assembly, assuming all would be right. Tested oil pump then, was good. Got a new oil pump from agriline. Same symptoms. Checked relief valve in distribution cover. That didn’t seal well on the seat. Cleaned that up and tested opening pressure. Found out that even when it opens around 5 bar it will be open with running engine and an awful lot of oil will flow through it. But still low pressure on the oil gallery. After measuring bearing clearances and correcting that with the right shells pressure was there with old and new pump.
I learned not to trust parts but measure, that the oil pump doesn’t wear as fast as the engine itself usually and that the relief valve doesn’t control oil pressure. The measures pressure gives a good indication on bearing wear.
Best regards
Emiel
N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964
Emiel
N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964
Re: 590E engine head problems
Hi Sandy, I eventually found the diesel dimension specifications on the end of the petrol section, thanks. Last evening a lay the crankshaft on the lathe and tried to clean away the ridge in the middle of the main bearings (oil groove reflection) with a small straight edge with oiled sand paper, but it was not successful so I have decided to bring it away for grinding first undersize. Today I will measure the crank pins. As the con rod shells do not have an oil ridge, wear can't be seen at first glance.
Emiel, thanks for your contribution. What I don't understand: why was your relief valve open? The only reason it is open, is when pump pressure is over 5 bar. Normally you would think this is the case with tight bearings and high rpm.
Besides bearing play, engine rpm and as you describe oil viscosity (temperature) has a large affect on the oil pressure. The oil pump is calculated to deliver enough capacity (volume) to lube the engine at 600 rpm at working temperature (thin oil). So for example, at 1800 rpm, the pump delivers 3 times the oil volume. I think the relief valve opens at certain point (certain rpm).
So I think an oil pump always delivers enough capacity to satisfactory lubricate the engine at higher rpm. But as most of us know, at low rpm with a hot engine, that's where the warning lamp will burn first
.
Emiel, thanks for your contribution. What I don't understand: why was your relief valve open? The only reason it is open, is when pump pressure is over 5 bar. Normally you would think this is the case with tight bearings and high rpm.
Besides bearing play, engine rpm and as you describe oil viscosity (temperature) has a large affect on the oil pressure. The oil pump is calculated to deliver enough capacity (volume) to lube the engine at 600 rpm at working temperature (thin oil). So for example, at 1800 rpm, the pump delivers 3 times the oil volume. I think the relief valve opens at certain point (certain rpm).
So I think an oil pump always delivers enough capacity to satisfactory lubricate the engine at higher rpm. But as most of us know, at low rpm with a hot engine, that's where the warning lamp will burn first
.Re: 590E engine head problems
Hi Sjors,
The old pump easily delivers the opening pressure in the begin of the oil gallery. Did comfirm opening pressure and tested with setting that pressure higher. In an engine Pressure is lost further back near the bearings. Oil pressure is not the same throughout the lubrication system. It is high close to the pump and gradually drops with worn bearings. Altering the relief valve setting has no influence on measured oil pressure at the gallery. A bit with cold oil and not at all with handwarm oil. Tested all with new premium brand 15w40 in spring and summertime.
In this early engine the valve was in de distribution cover. In the newer engines it is in the pump but the principles remain the same. Imho the oil pressure depends solely on bearing wear and not on relief valve setting.
The old pump easily delivers the opening pressure in the begin of the oil gallery. Did comfirm opening pressure and tested with setting that pressure higher. In an engine Pressure is lost further back near the bearings. Oil pressure is not the same throughout the lubrication system. It is high close to the pump and gradually drops with worn bearings. Altering the relief valve setting has no influence on measured oil pressure at the gallery. A bit with cold oil and not at all with handwarm oil. Tested all with new premium brand 15w40 in spring and summertime.
In this early engine the valve was in de distribution cover. In the newer engines it is in the pump but the principles remain the same. Imho the oil pressure depends solely on bearing wear and not on relief valve setting.
Best regards
Emiel
N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964
Emiel
N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964
Re: 590E engine head problems
Hello Emiel,
my 590E engine is of the later type (FL head, mechanical pump, top o-ring in block for cylinder liners), but I also have a relieve valve behind the distribution cover, and I believe in the pump if I remember well (didn't have a close look to it yet)
my 590E engine is of the later type (FL head, mechanical pump, top o-ring in block for cylinder liners), but I also have a relieve valve behind the distribution cover, and I believe in the pump if I remember well (didn't have a close look to it yet)
Re: 590E engine head problems
little update.
This evening I discovered a cracked wrist pin in piston No.6! It was cracked in the long way on two sides. What a surprise.
Tomorrow the crankshaft goes to the engine shop for grinding, but only the main journals. I measured the pins, they all are 63,480 / 63,490.
Out of roundness and taper are very minimal, 0,01 or so. No scores or whatever. I decided to clean them thoroughly or give a little polish leave them alone and run with new STD shells.
This evening I discovered a cracked wrist pin in piston No.6! It was cracked in the long way on two sides. What a surprise.
Tomorrow the crankshaft goes to the engine shop for grinding, but only the main journals. I measured the pins, they all are 63,480 / 63,490.
Out of roundness and taper are very minimal, 0,01 or so. No scores or whatever. I decided to clean them thoroughly or give a little polish leave them alone and run with new STD shells.
Re: 590E engine head problems
Hello everyone, quick question about the rod bolts. On some rods are bolts that are loose (without play) but there is also one bolt with a little play, can I leave it as it is?
Yesterday while fitting the rod cap on the rod, I discovered that the bolts have a strong magnetic field!
Yesterday while fitting the rod cap on the rod, I discovered that the bolts have a strong magnetic field!