590E engine head problems

[Sjors]

Hi Sandy,

the problem is, you are never sure what are you going to do with the tractor.

In my case, I want it mechanically sound and it's a hobby to use it respectfully but want te be able to use the full potential of the engine. It is a strange feel to me if not all components are matched to each other, so I have to remain careful in it's use and not able to use it's full horsepower.
I don't have to decide right now, first do the engine.

Yes it's true the raised PTO for the NP is rare, nothing to do about it. Only swap the gearbox for a non-NP one. But the NP is improved and I like that.

Thanks to all for helping me in the decisions.

[John b]

if the camshaft journals are worn make sure you have oil to the head and rocker shaft when you have it running again. The oil pressure gauge will read sufficient pressure but there can still be none at the head, the best way to check is to run the engine with the rocker cover off to check all the rockers have oil. It's also worth checking the radiator and cooling system flow because with 2 extra cylinders the ones at the back can overheat and crack the block between the cylinders and they can also wear quicker. Not normally a problem if the cooling system is ok on the fordson but the Nuffield radiator was too small for the 6 cylinder BMC engine and caused a lot of engine issues

[Emiel]

Did a fmd engine rebuild 2 years ago and had those new con rod bolts and nuts. They’re self locking but didn’t seem to be very useful. We then opted for refitting the old ones with a little drop of thread locking agent. Tractor runs in pulling and it works.

[Sjors]

hi John,
the lubrication of the rockers worked still fine. I have a new radiator fitted but still the old water pump. Don´t know how badly the impeller is rusted, but a badly rusted impeller will work worse than a new one I assume. The radiator is new and later the engine will be new, so I think it´s not very wise to keep the old water pump. I left the pump alone till now because she don´t leak and is simple to replace at a later moment.

hi Emiel,
loctite thread lock (the correct one) will work perfectly. I work for a world leading manufacturer of large reciprocating pumps, and all kinds of loctite are used everywhere. Spring washers or mechanically locking nuts (flatten) are not used anymore.

[Emiel]

Sjors, my message was indeed trust ford bolt quality and trust loc tite for locking.

[Sjors]

Hello everyone,

today I pulled the pistons out. The thin babbitt layer of the rod bearings were intact, not worn through. Some bearings had a very minimal line caused by a foreign particles or something. The bearings are original Ford STD, so standard size. Pulled one main bearing to judge the wear, and made a good impression but also a line drawn by a particle.
Cylinder liner #6 had some small vertical groves. I expected to find broken piston rings but none of the rings on all pistons were broken. So why this cylinder had some small groves I don´t know.
Cylinder #5 had a scored piston. The bottom oil ring is stuck in the groove by the scoring; however the liner is fine.
Cylinder #4 is the one with the crack.
Cylinders #2 and #3 are fine, with a single (rust?)pitting.
I seems that cylinder #1 shows a crack, but is very difficult to judge.
All cylinders show honing marks, also in the upper part of the cylinders; based on this and on the condition of the bearings I think the engine has not run a tremendous amount of hours.
The pistons 1,2,3,4, and 6 look good, but I still have to measure them to judge the wear.
I tend to replace all liners: # 4 is cracked, #1 is probably cracked, #2 and #3 show a minor (rust?)pit (future pinhole??)
I don't know the piston wear yet, but if they are within tolerance, would it be a normal practice to just renew the scored piston an re-use the other 5 pistons with just new piston rings?

The main bearings and rod bearings will be replaced by new ones.
What to do with the oil pump? Leave it alone?

[Emiel]

Hi,

Oil pump can be tested for flow according to workshop manual. Did one and was amazed by the volume. Have not seen many fordson pumps but never a worn one.

Rgds

[shepp]

In the past we have just fitted new liners and re-used the original pistons with new rings and the engines have been fine. However today with the advent of full engine kit sets it can sometimes cost nearly as much to do that buying individual components as it costs to buy the full kit with all new components, so that is something for you to weigh up and decide on. If the crank looks good a light polish with very fine emery cloth and oil might suffice. Again, with the oil pump it is a personal decision, the engine has not seized or run a bearing so if there have been no oil pressure issues with flickering oil light then it should be OK to re-use the original. Hopefully when you pull the liners the block grooves for the "O" rings will be in good shape.

[Billy26F5]

I would replace parts for all cylinders if you need to replace one, other than that I would probably go for the kit. As for the oil pump I would make some measurements of clearances to see what it looks like before deciding (although Ford never specified anything I would suggest that the clearances be similar to the sort of thing specified for other pumps as a guide), there are no 6 cylinder pumps available new at the moment.
Sandy

[Sjors]

Hi shepp and Sandy, thanks for your responses. I'll measure the piston sizes with micrometer and decide.
I want to replace all liners for sure. It is realistic the O-rings are water-tight because of the rust. I

As for torque specs, can I apply the specs for the 4 cylinder? For the connecting rods I'm quite sure as they are the same, but what about head bolt torque values, are they the same for 4 and 6 cylinder?

[Billy26F5]

I think they are the same but a 6 cylinder manual (Thames Trader or industrial engines) would confirm it.
Sandy

[John b]

Hi Sjors, sorry if I’m telling you the obvious but when you measure the pistons check the wear on the ring grooves too. If the liner o ring grooves are not too bad I find Wurth Super RTV silicone works well to seal them (they are old engine blocks now and unlikely to be perfect) and also acts as a lube to slide the liner in. There are many opinions on fitting liners, not saying mine is any better than others, just that it has always worked for me

[Sjors]

Hi John,
yesterday evening I pulled 3 sleeves. They went equally well. I did see a horror video on Youtube from a lad who needed 1 day for the first sleeve to remove, including heating with a huge torch and big sledge hammer so I was pretty nervous.

There is some sludge at the bottom of the water jacket (quite normal after those yeas). So as soon as the engine is empty I will pressure wash it and dry with compressed air. Plan to clean the O-ring grooves and the fitting areas where the sleeve fits with a small wire brush on an air tool. First dry fit the sleeves to check the protrusion.

If this protrusion measure has to be adjusted, what is the best way to to it? If it should be higher, a shim cab be added (where to source?), if the measure should be less, than turn the sleeve in the lathe?

For the final fit I plan to put a little some silicone based liquid sealant in the groove, just to fill protentional rust pits.

[Billy26F5]

Sounds pretty good, try all the liners in all the cylinders first then decide which is best where. Ensure the mounting area is clean before doing this. Shims used to be available but I haven't seen them around for ages, CNH might still have some. I wouldn't put the liners in the lathe if possible.
Sandy

[John b]

Mayhill tractors and Malpas tractors (both online) sell packs of shims. If the liner is too high then keep cleaning the shelf with emery cloth, I have never had one that was too high and didn't go down with more cleaning and a bit of patience. As Sandy says, when you dry fit the liners, keep rotating them until you find the best spot then mark the position so when you finish fit it you can put it in that position. Make sure you clamp each liner in place with big washers when you finish fit them until the head goes on, new pistons/rings can lift the liners when you rotate the crank fitting them

[shepp]

Sparex do the liner shims you can order via Malpas Online (Malpas Tractors), and I would think EnginefixUK will do them as well, they apparently have a manufacturer for oil pumps so they might be able to source an oil pump if you find you need one.

[Sjors]

Hello everyone,
thanks for your posts. I found the shims, but according to the Fordson workshop manual, sims are (end were back in the day) only available for the liners without the upper O-ring, so the older type. In my engine are the newer type liners.

The engine casing is now empty, but is still on the bell housing so the crankshaft and camshaft are sill in. Behind the #6 liner and the casing was a 10 cm high buildup of rust colored sludge, so this reduced good coolant circulation.

Past weekend I did an unpleasant discovery. I mentioned earlier that I removed one main bearing cap to have a quick look at the bearings to get an impression. Although the bearing surface looks good (the thin babbitt layer intact), I found the crankshaft bearing surface worn-in. I can clearly feel ridges with the tip of my finger. How is this possibe, as the soft babbitt should not be able to hurt the crankshaft. Maybe caused by imbedded particles in the bearing. It is clear the crankshaft has to be reground, unfortunately.
Should I have a close look to the oil pump? Can a worn pump cause this? How likely would it be?

[John b]

If you are rebuilding the engine fit a new oil pump, they are not too expensive and it will be one less thing to worry about. The ridges in the crank usually occur from the oil groove in the shell bearing or in line with the oil hole, It’s very hard to judge crank journals without feeling them but as long as they are in tolerance they are sometimes not as bad as they seem, after all its a low revving diesel not a race car engine. A decent machine shop will tell you whether it needs regrinding or not and it will have to come out anyway if you are renewing the bearings. As for liner shims I have shimmed the 2 ring liners with no problems

[Billy26F5]

John I'm afraid replacing the oil pump isn't that easy here, as it's different from the 4 cylinder one to give more flow, hence the discussions earlier. Hopefully someone in the aftermarket companies will see this oversight sometime. In the meantime though it has to be the original pump or a better second hand one. I wouldn't suspect the oil pump for the wear you have, but check it anyway. A worn pump would have caused a more serious problem.
Sandy

[John b]

As you say Sandy, if the oil pressure was bad you would expect the mains and big end shells to have at least started to ‘pick up’ and have suffered some damage. The oil pumps listed are under £150 which isn’t that excessive if there is any doubt about the existing one, considering the cost and time of a full rebuild

[Billy26F5]

John I suggest you see these posts from Grani: viewtopic.php?p=21241#p21241 viewtopic.php?p=17479#p17479
The 4 and 6 cylinder pumps are different (the six is longer to provide suitable flow to all bearings), Grani also seemed to find some poor quality repro 4 cylinder pumps. The six cylinder pumps are not currently available new. The 4 cylinder pumps are E1ADKN-6600 (later E1ADN-6600B) for the plain type, E1ADN-6600A for the type with a relief valve, and the six is 508E-6600.
Here's the only reference I've found for the 6 cylinder part no., although not reliable you can clearly see the extra length in the pic: https://www.wengers.com/oil-pump-6600c-508e.html
Sandy

[John b]

I can see the difference in size, I have put a couple of 6 cylinder engines in Majors but they were runners so I didn't get inside them. Would this pump not fit the 590e?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122031381653 ... media=COPY

[shepp]

As I previously posted, contact " enginefixuk" and see if they have a supplier for an oil pump, they claim to have a dedicated manufacturer that supplies them with every type of oil pump.

[Billy26F5]

I can see the difference in size, I have put a couple of 6 cylinder engines in Majors but they were runners so I didn't get inside them. Would this pump not fit the 590e?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122031381653 ... media=COPY

That's too late a pump, and it probably won't fit the sump. It's also much shorter above, with a different gear.
Hopefully the pump isn't in trouble, as that's a bit owkward.
Sandy

[Sjors]

Of course I can inspect the pump according the manual, but if the gap between gear and housing (radial way) is too wide, nothing can be done. In axial way I can resurface the parts with a surface grinding machine.