590E engine head problems

[Sjors]

Hello everyone!

currently I am in the process of fixing a super major with 590E engine (FL head), cast sump. This week I started the engine for the first time in years. After bleeding the fuel system it fired up quickly and ran good. I put a new radiator and thermostat in and of course good quality cooling fluid.
It is normal to have some bubbles in the cooling system because of trapped air and so, but I noticed it didn´t stop generating gas bubbles.
Today I decided to keep her running until the thermostat opens, but today there were gas bubbles constantly.
In the afternoon I decided to remove the cylinder head, as I suspect the head gasket. At first glance I can´t find an error at the gasket or the head, but I still have to clean everything.
All pistons have the same coloring, but one valve from cylinder 1 has a light grey color.
Are there any particular points of attention to look at with these 590E engines?
What is good to do? I plan to clean and test the injectors and lap the valves to their seats and resurface the head. Are there valve stem rubbers on these engines (didn't look to them yet)? Which parts to order: head gasket, (of course exhaust/inlet gasket), injector rubbers (between head wall and injector), injector sealing washers (between injector nozzle and head), valve stem seals?
Looking for advice, thanks!

[mathias1]

First find yourself a gasket set for the engine. It will have all the seals you need.
Like these: http://www.jmgaskets-seals.co.uk/prodde ... 0D&cat=324
It does have the same valve stem seals as the Fordson engine.
Look if the valves are usable (not bent) and see how much play there is in the valve stems. Best to clean them up and let the engine shop do it's work on them.
Also look for scores in the cilinder bores.

Does it burn oil? Or leaking behind the flywheel?
If so, I would suggest to do a complete overhaul.

[Emiel]

If you don’t find evidence of leakage on the head gasket and you’re sure it was combustion gas causing bubbles I’d start looking for a crack in the head.

Pressure testing the head is an option to find any issues. An engine shop should be able to support you if you can’t find anything yourself.

Posting some pictures might help as well so we can see what you have.

[Sjors]

otherwise the engine is dry, so no leaks at the crank. The hone marks are still visible in the bores, so pretty good.

I'll order this https://histoparts.com/H5911___koppakki ... catId=1897

Tomorrow I'll number the valves and remove them and check the play etc..

Are these engines prone to head failures? In general, I don't recall.

[Billy26F5]

Head failures are generally from incorrect coolant (corrosion and freezing, not common but very possible), I would suspect insufficient head torque or liner protrusion first, the valves are less likely to be related. If not then look for a crack in the head or the liner (although it's rare in the liner that doesn't mean it's impossible).The injectors are also unlikely to cause this, but it's always a good idea to check them if they're off. I would be very surprised if the block was the problem, but you never know until it's been checked thoroughly.
Sandy

[Sjors]

Today I inspected the head. Till now, no cracks found. I noticed that the valve stems of the exhaust valves are pretty worn (9,43 mm instead of 9,49 / 9,50). The carbon has an abrasive effect. The intake valve stems are very little worn (9,47-9,50 in diameter). I decided to replace all valves and valve guides. Also text a lad I know with an engine overhaul shop. Tomorrow he let know me if the head will fit his machine for resurfacing, because he is more into the cars (smaller). I also asked him if he can pressurize the head. After resurfacing, it is easier to check for cracks.

[mathias1]

Today I inspected the head. Till now, no cracks found. I noticed that the valve stems of the exhaust valves are pretty worn (9,43 mm instead of 9,49 / 9,50). The carbon has an abrasive effect. The intake valve stems are very little worn (9,47-9,50 in diameter). I decided to replace all valves and valve guides. Also text a lad I know with an engine overhaul shop. Tomorrow he let know me if the head will fit his machine for resurfacing, because he is more into the cars (smaller). I also asked him if he can pressurize the head. After resurfacing, it is easier to check for cracks.

Normally you do the pressure check before resurfacing, just to avoid costs. If it leaks, it doesn't matter where it comes from.

Valve guides are normally the same as the fordson engine. Valves are different I guess.
If you take your time and go secure through the process you can fix the issue on the engine head.

[Sjors]

Hi Mathias, I wonder if they can get the head tight for pressure test without resurfacing, but I let the company do that. Still have to scrape the gasket surfaces.
The 6D and 4D engine parts are the same, just 2 cylinders more, besides of the oil pump which has higher capacity because of the extra bearings.

Problem is I don't have all the time, because the tractor has to haul timber this winter. With it's roadless drive axle it's our only 4x4 cabless tractor.
Bu no worries, I do the repairs with love.
I already ordered the parts. If the head is beyond repair, the parts are not wasted but probably find use in another head.

[shepp]

It's a fairly robust head with enough metal between cylinders and across the valve seats, and cracking is not known to be an issue but that doesn't mean it cannot happen. Having said that I did once have a D series horsebox in the late 1960's with the later 330 engine and that developed an invisible crack in the head causing pressurisation of the cooling system. Did you try torquing the head studs down and see if that reduced the problem before you removed it? A pressure test of the head will either confirm or remove a cracked head as the cause. If the head tests out good and you cannot see evidence of blow by on the gasket or block and head surfaces, then as Sandy says liner protrusion might have been an issue. Another potential and indeed likely cause could be that a liner is developing a pin hole just big enough to let gases under pressure pass into the cooling system but not big enough (yet!) to dump coolant into the sump oil. If you are going to the trouble of fitting new valves and guides it might be an idea to fit new liners with either new pistons and rings or the original pistons with new rings fitted. Pin holing of the liners is the most common cause of coolant getting into the sump, much more so than failure of the liner sealing rings.

[Sjors]

thanks for your reply mister shepp. There is no sign of water in the oil, but all fluids were new so maybe the water had not enough time to migrate into the oil after 30 mins running.

Today I will inspect the cylinder walls with penetrant fluid (red penetrant fluid with white powder), maybe a suspect will show up.

[Sjors]

Forgot to ask a question

Anyone knows if the small cups which are on top of the valves are still available? (those where the rockers push at) These are different on the intake and exhaust valves. The ones in my engine are pitted and should be replaced.

[Billy26F5]

Unfortunately they seem to be very difficult to find, at one stage I thought CNH had some but we've never got round to finding that out yet. Other than that there are no new ones around.
Sandy

[Sjors]

Sandy thanks for your answer.
I seems the valve stem diameter of 9,5 mm is pretty standard, as my engine shop had a pilot for this diameter. So they might can get valve stem caps who fit.

Yesterday I did some dye check after cleaning the head and in 4 of the 6 cylinders. After applying the red dye, you have to wait like 15 minutes so I wasn't able to check everything yet. The head shows no cracks yet, but I don't trust cylinder liner no.5 at the moment; some lines showed up.

I plan to pressure test the head, this test should give a 100% guarantee of the outcome.
Yesterday I carefully checked the head gasket and the gasket surfaces, but absolutely no sign of blow.

If the head is ok after pressure testing, what would you do?

[shepp]

As I said previously, if the head tests out as sound then the only real alternative issue would be a fine pin hole in one of the liners. Issues with wet liners are not confined to the Ford engine, other makes of older engines suffer from them as well. Indeed modern engines with wet liners can have issues with problems caused by cavitation in the coolant, and antifreeze manufacturers such as Castrol have developed special coolants such as Castrol NF and SF that have ingredients designed to reduce cavitation to protect the wet liners - they are not suitable for older engines like the 590E and 592E however. If you fit new liners be sure to shim them correctly to give the correct protrusion as per the workshop manual, I think all liners supplied today are the same type, in the past both plain and spigoted liners have been fitted.
As for the valve caps, these need to be exactly correct to size and specification if they are to perform the function they were designed to do, which is to encourage rotation of the valves when the engine is running so as to produce even wear of the valve head and seat.

[Sjors]

shepp, thanks for your post.
At the moment my conclusion is that liner 4 has almost certain cracks. I did the dye test for a second time with great carefulness and even more protentional cracks show up. I showed the pictures from the liner to some mechanics and guys from quality department who do dye checks regular, but I is hard to tell. Independent from the outcome of the head pressure test, parts don't trust have to move. I will remove the sump and hope the crankshaft journals are in good shape.
Are these crankshafts as good as the later Ford tractors? Did a total overhaul on a 9600 engine which had a tremendous amount of hours (meter stopped at 10,000 hours) and all journals were still well within specified tolerances.

Hope the engine can stay on the tractor; plan to leave the crankshaft in place if the journals are o.k. Of course the connecting rod bearings will be replaced. Is it necessary to replace the rod cap bolts in these engines? I know this is always advice for big turbo diesel Allis Chalmers diesels, like 7080 tractors, otherwise they will throw a rod...

I want to post pictures via Photo Bucket but they removed my account and it seems they charge a fee per month now...

[Billy26F5]

For pics see this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5024&p=53955#p53955
Sounds like you'll need new liners, make sure you get the right ones (only two available, but one of them will certainly fit, they are as Shepp pointed out spigoted ones only). There are no instructions regarding replacing the big end bolts and nuts so see what you think (as long as the nuts stay put when tight). I think I'm right in saying that there are new ones but they're not the same.
Sandy

[mathias1]

Hope the engine can stay on the tractor; plan to leave the crankshaft in place if the journals are o.k. Of course the connecting rod bearings will be replaced. Is it necessary to replace the rod cap bolts in these engines? I know this is always advice for big turbo diesel Allis Chalmers diesels, like 7080 tractors, otherwise they will throw a rod...

I want to post pictures via Photo Bucket but they removed my account and it seems they charge a fee per month now...

It will be easier to take the engine out the tractor, take out the crankshaft to get the liners out.
I would go for a complete overhaul. If crankshaft is fine, just replacing the bearings.
Same goes for the pistons rings, when you are that deep in the engine, I would just replace them.
You will have a whole new engine that will go for another 60 years.

[Sjors]

Hi Sandy,
thanks. There are bolt available, but I'll dive into this matter if applicable.
It's a '64 engine with FL head, so it's quite sure the thick type sleeves are in there.
Is it true that the camshaft bearings are not available anymore? I can't even find them in the exploded view drawings at the New Holland website.
What to do in case of a complete overhaul regarding the camshaft bearings? They will not be new anymore in almost all cases.

hi Mathias1,
agree with you to take the whole engine out... Don't have tons of time but I'll hold me off the street for a while (saying here in the Netherlands) so that's a good thing. I'm also concerned about the clutch and curious witch one is fitted. It's a live drive and the standard clutch can't hold the higher RPM of the 590E. I can source the modern improved clutch (700 euro!).
As I'm going to replace the liners I will go for the whole kit; sleeve + piston + rings)

[Sjors]

forgot a question..

Is it correct there are modern shaft seals available for the crankshaft to replace the rope type seals? If yes, I assume they will also fit the 6D variant?and will it fit without further modifications?

[shepp]

I agree with everyone, better to take the engine out to work on it and do the full job. You can be sure then that everything has been checked. The engine will have the later thick wall liners with top and bottom sealing rings. Get the crankshaft checked for ovality and scoring, you could just refit it but as you are fitting new main and con rod bearings anyway the little extra cost of a regrind is probably worth it. Also the oil pump. Sparex list new camshafts and con rod nuts but strangely not the bearings or con rod bolts, Sparex parts are what New Holland supply as Gold Value parts.
The crankshaft rear rope oil seal needs careful fitting as per the manual, also the half moon cork sump seals. Kits are made for the Perkins engines and Perkins derived engine as fitted in the Dexta to convert them from rope seal to conventional oil seal, but it is a completely different set up to the Ford engine with a separate oil seal/rope holder, and a conversion for the Ford engine I do not think is possible.

[Sjors]

Hi sepp,

thanks for the advise.

https://histoparts.com/fm8067___con-rod ... catid=1898

I will stick with the rope seal.

[Billy26F5]

Kits are made for the Perkins engines and Perkins derived engine as fitted in the Dexta to convert them from rope seal to conventional oil seal, but it is a completely different set up to the Ford engine with a separate oil seal/rope holder, and a conversion for the Ford engine I do not think is possible.

I agree too, as the lower half of the rope is held by the sump casting itself.

Sjors, the bolt you've posted doesn't seem to have a self locking nut, which is definitely required for this (in the same way as other manuals talk about replacing them). Camshaft bearings are rare, and no longer available, so there's not a lot you can do about that. The problems with a live clutch are more to do with the fact that they can't take the torque of the extra power rather than the revs, as they suffered even with the NP which was running at only 100 rpm more (if there were people who did do it as I suspect most would have run them just like older Major's at around 1600 rpm) but being given much heavier loads. The std. single clutch is what the lorries used, so no rev problem there, but it means finding another gearbox. County and Roadless used the 13" clutch for their sixes.
Sandy

[mathias1]

As for the clutch;

I took the original live drive clutch out of my County six cilinder and replaced it with the improved clutch. So far it is doing great. It's just not a working tractor to be honest.
The tractor was delivered with the live drive clutch as a Super 4 with 4 cilinder engine. Somewhere in the past it was upgraded with a 112 bhp ford industrial engine (Dorset). Clutch was working fine except I couldn't engage the pto when the tractor was running.
I bought the new clutch from histoparts as they have it for a good price. But beware, it is heavy as hell!

Some pictures are in this thread, will do an update soon.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8554&p=61382#p61382

[Sjors]

hi Sandy and Matthias.
as I have a NP gearbox, I would like to keep the gearbox. In the future I plan to add a raised PTO so I'm able to use the tractor more like a modern one. I'm curious which clutch is now fitted, probably an original one. The previous owner of the tractor didn't know it was a live drive so I was lucky in that respect. If the original clutch is fitted and in good shape (aluminium cover had no cracks nor welded), I think it is wise to upgrade to the improved clutch do you think?

Matthias 'm enthusiast to hear to have the improved clutch and will read your story in this.

[Billy26F5]

It all really depends on what you're going to do, as if you're not going to give it heavy loads the original clutch will be fine, but under heavy loads it will likely suffer. Even the original live clutch is pretty heavy, which means this new one is heavier. The NP raised PTO is pretty rare.
Sandy