engine/transmission dowel pin question

[Sjors]

hello everyone, hope you all had a very good Christmas.

I have a simple question about the two locating pins which are in the engine flange to meet the corresponding holes in the transmission flange.
The pins have a stepped diameter, with the larger diameter in the engine flange and the smaller to fit the transmission flange.
Today I planned to remount the engine to the transmission, but I noticed the large diameter part of both dowel pins protrude above the mating surface of the engine, just under 1 mm (0.04") or so. So I they seemed not driven deep enough into the engine's flange. But after some hammer taps both pins feel seated at full depth. They both protrude the same, so that is suspicious.

One thing is for sure, if I leave it as it is, both surfaces will not mate fully, so there will be a small gap which is not what I want. There is no stepped hole in the transmission flange.
The engine is a 590E. So maybe in the engine's previous application there was an intermediate thin steel plate between engine and transmission.

How do the locating pins from the original 4 cylinder engine look like? Do they also protrude a little with the thicker part?

Thanks, Sjors

[Billy26F5]

Had a good Christmas and hope you have too.
Are you sure the holes are clean? On Super Billy the dowels stayed in the gearbox, leaving the engine holes empty for cleaning. I suggest you check that before anything else. A pic would be handy, but I'm unable to post one right now, I'll hopefully manage it in a few days. If you can post one of your situation it might uncover something that I've missed now.
Sandy

[Emiel]

Imho it doesn’t make sense to hss as be dowels in different lengths when the differences are only about a mm. I think dirt or rust between the dowel head and the end of the hole is the problem.

Remove clean and refit would be my first step.

[Sjors]

Hello Sandy and Emiel,
I tapped the dowels out and they were not o.k. I measured the holes and turned new ones on the lathe. The hole diameters were slight different. On the gearbox side 13,50 mm and on the engine side I turned them 14,31 mm. They are installed with a press pit on the gear box side and fit just lose on the engine side.
I fitted a new dutch Kawe double clutch to be able to use the 6 cylinder rpm and power. Some pain in the wallet, but there is only one way and that's the right way.

However, it was a little nightmare to fit the engine to correspond with the splines. This took a few hours of trying!

On later fords, the inner shaft is for the pto. The fordson major is the opposite offcourse this was not the reason it took so long.

So, the dowel problem is solved.

[mathias1]

I fitted a new dutch Kawe double clutch to be able to use the 6 cylinder rpm and power. Some pain in the wallet, but there is only one way and that's the right way.

However, it was a little nightmare to fit the engine to correspond with the splines.

I have the same clutch in my County, so far I'm happy with it. As for fitting: it's a bit fiddling. iI you take your time you will get there in the end. I put everything in gear and use a big spanner on the front pulley to get it aligned.

So, the dowel problem is solved.

The dowels here are also press fit on the gearbox side.
in the county there are omitted. I used the holes to put a bolt through to get the engine aligned.

Did you find your camshaft bearings? All went well with the engine rebuilt?

[Billy26F5]

Glad you fixed that. The aftermarket clutch seems to have good comments now but it'll be interesting to see how easy they are to fix when the plates need relining or other issues of that kind.
Mathias, I think you might have issues without the dowels but see how it goes for now, the fact that it's a County suggests that it could be more troublesome due to the extra loads (especially as you have a 2700E series six in yours).
Sandy

[Sjors]

Hi Mathias,
Never experienced at any tractor make that both sides of the dowels are press fit in this application.
As everything has a little play and their tolerances, it can grow old with maybe 0,05 mm misalignment.
I also put in in gear and turned the crank. My father with a big plier turning on the PTO while I was fighting with the engine hanging in the crane.
At the moment the bare engine with crankshaft, camshaft, camfollowers and timing gears is mounted at the tractor.
In consultation with my engine shop, I ended up with polishing the camshaft and its bearing liners. I didn't manage to source new cam bearings.
Today I fitted the sleeves (ofcourse without o rings) and did some first quick measurements on the liner protrusion. They are all between 0,10 mm - 0,12 mm without clamping with bolts. The counterbores in the block are all 11,00 mm deep. I will do the measurement again with clamping down the liners, but I think his will not effect the protrusion measurement a lot because everything is clean and metal to metal. Turning the liners sometimes differs 0,01 or 0,02 mm maximum.

[Billy26F5]

All sounding good, did you re-metal the bearings or just clean them? Liner protrusion sounds good. Hope reassembly goes smoothly from now on, a pic or too would also be great. I would have been surprised if the dowels were a press fit in the block too, but that was well fixed.
Sandy

[Sjors]

Hi Sandy,

as protrusion should be 0,05 to 0,10 mm, would I have to taken action if this is exeed by 0,02 or so?

[Sjors]

I forgot to mention I just gave the bearings a polish with a very fine scotch brite like brush on an air tool. The tool just fitted trough the bearing rings so I was also able to reach the last bearing. I checked with a small mirror and I believe the babbitt is quite intact.

[Billy26F5]

Good that the bearings are still original and in good condition. The excessive protrusion might cause difficulty for sealing the coolant and oil areas, but I doubt 0.0008" will make a huge difference, particularly with the composite gaskets of today, it's more of an issue with the copper gaskets originally fitted. Hope things carry on being good.
Sandy

[Emiel]

Hi Sandy,

as protrusion should be 0,05 to 0,10 mm, would I have to taken action if this is exeed by 0,02 or so?

I think you should read this with the accuracy which is achievable with the tools and method given in the manual. Then this 0,02 mm would be within tolerance I think.

Do you measure the flange or the top of the spigot?

[Sjors]

Hi Emiel,

I don't know exactly what you mean with spigot. The translation programme give a lot of very different meanings of this word but I found none of the applicable
I zeroed a dial gauge on the engine's deck and moved it to the liner outer ridge, so where the fire ring of the gasket is going to be. The top face of the liner will be in metal contact with the head after installation.
The worst thing that will happen if the protrusion is too much is that there will be not enough pressure on the rest of the head gasket to seal for coolant nearby the liners. The thickness and construction of the head gasket is mandatory in this. I have the head gasket from Agriline (Histoparts). I didn't measure the thickness of the gasket yet. I know Fordson struggled with headgaskets at back then so this is an important matter.

I was thinking to take one of the old liners and turn the top of the liner flat and use this liner upside down with valve grinding paste to further clean the counterbore and achieve a few 0,01 mm's.
Maybe I'm too meticulous, as you are right: the manuals method with straight edge and feeler gauges is absolutely less precise then a dial gauge on a sledge.

[Emiel]

Hi,

I switch to Dutch briefly. Met spigot bedoel ik het randje op de bus. Die moet je inderdaad niet meten maar de kraag van de bus.

Better to over think and do it right once then do it again.

Have you rotated the liners and measured again? I found that rotating gives other measurements.

[Sjors]

Hi Emiel,

yes we mean the same edge.

Rotating the sleeves resulted in a variation of approximately 0,02 mm.

[Billy26F5]

The measurements sound ok, the spigot would add at least 0.010" so no problem (assuming your liners do have a spigot, they really should). If the gasket you have is as Agriline say then there shouldn't be the same issues as there would be with a copper one.
Sandy

[Sjors]

Hi Sandy,
this evening I played around with the sleeves and dial gauge. The effect in sleeve height when rotating the sleeves is very minimal. On some sleeves the value does not change, on other just 0,01 mm.
Also I clamped the first sleeve with 4 bolts and washers, with the dial gauge on the sleeve while fasten the bolts. I hoped to be able to sink the leeve 0,02 mm further to get to the maximum protrusion value of 0,1 mm. At the moment 1 sleeve is about 0,1 and the other ones a little higher.

All counter bores are super clean and everything is bone dry so everything is metal to metal. Fastening clamping bolts does not effect the protrusion while the sleeves are sitting properly in the shoulder. I think it´t not a good sign if the dial gauge had moved while fastening the clamping bolts. This would be a sign of stress.

Do you think I should take measures to get the protrusion under 0,1 mm (but above 0,05) ?

[Billy26F5]

I don't think you need worry if it's the composite gasket, it's more of a problem with the copper gasket as fitted by Ford. The excess is so wee the composite gasket will easily survive well.
Sandy