Super Major low hydraulic pressure

This forum is for the Fordson New Major, including the Super Major and the Power Major.
Matty
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Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Matty »

Hi all.

I've an Ebro Super 55 (Super Major without diff-lock or live PTO). I'm building a fence post driver to mount on the 3 point lift and when I was choosing a ram I thought I'd check the hydraulic pressure because of course piston size affects the amount of pressure required. Bought a gauge and found the most I can get out of it is 52 bar (754 PSI). I first connected the gauge to the external hydraulics chest output. Then I tried it on the hole in the rear axel lid on the right hand side under the seat. Same max reading. I haven't messed with the relief valve yet as I'm pretty sure it's not getting to the pressure where the relief valve cuts out..... I'm only getting to 52 bar when it's at max revs more or less.

I'm surprised the pressure is as low as it is as the Ebro picks the 1.5m Howard cultivator up pretty easily at fairly modest engine speed. Lift ram holds well with selector in draft position and main control at the neutral spot.

Soooo what I'm asking is do you think I'm right? Should I buy a new pump? I've just read comments on another thread that new ones are rubbish. What are the chances a second hand one will be any better? Should I just buy a bigger ram than I'd intended?

Thanks in advance, and hello from Galicia,

Matt

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Billy26F5 »

My first impression from your description is that what you have is not a Super 55, probably 48 or an Ebro Diesel (some pics would be great). The point on the RH side under the seat is not protected by the unloading valve, so be careful. I suggest you look at the unoading valve and if it seems ok then maybe look at the pump. If the pump appears to be poor check the drive mechanism as the key there is a common problem. Also check the feed pipe o-rings as any leak there wil cause similar trouble. The correct pressure is 2200 psi, the unloading valve can be adjusted with shims. There aren't new pumps of this kind, only the later Super type, but many new things are not as good as they should be.
A serial number would also be great as Ebro information is very difficult to find.
Here's the Ford manual for the hydraulics:https://www.fordson.se/5_Hydraulik_Verk ... 47-166.pdf, https://www.fordson.se/6A_Hydraul_Suple ... 01-024.pdf
I haven't found any Ebro manual for this period.
Great to have you here as very few Ebro tractors have appeared on the forum, and they are after all yet another variation of the Major.
Sandy
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Matty
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Matty »

Hi Sandy.

Thanks for the speedy reply and the files from the manuals. I had a quick look and they seem to cover the other two Major versions which differ slightly from mine. Here are some photos (hopefully). First time using postimages so apologies if the links don't work:


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A little history if you're interested. Bought the Ebro about 2 years ago. Draft Selector lever floppy like it wasn't doing anything so took the lid off the axle and found connector rod missing. Decided to strip and clean hydraulics but didn't open the pump body. Replaced and serviced obvious stuff and made a connector rod for the lever. Adjusted re ebro manual (I have a very poor quality pdf if anyone wants it). Put it back together and it seemed to work, though it's only now that I'm using hydraulics under load. It does have a small leak from the home made gasket under the hydraulics chest but the flow isn't enough to be effecting the pressure. Wondering, if I got that wrong, maybe there's a more serious leak internally and most of the fluid is just pooring back into the bottom of the axel.

If I go back into the axel again for a look at the internals of the pump, do you know if it's possible to measure the clearance on the lobes of the pump gears to see how worn they are?

Very happy to have made contact with yourselves. The forum comes highly recommended....

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Billy26F5 »

Now I see that you have an early Super Ebro, these were only made for a year or so, before the disk brakes and diff lock were added. I got the manuals wrong, the second one does cover the Super hydraulics but it misses the end which is here: https://www.fordson.se/6B_Hydraul_Suple ... 25-050.pdf
Pics worked fine (more please, this is quite a rare tractor). The selector lever is not original, but I don't think that would cause your problem. These hydraulics are more owkward, but shouldn't be too difficult with the manual. There are far more possible leaks here so that needs checking. If the top cover didn't come off perfectly square for the first 2" there's a chance the feed pipe bracket has cracked, and if the collets in that bracket have come out the pipe won't seal. As for the pump the same applies, but as it's a Super pump it's different. I'm keen to see what manual you're using, as if it's for later tractors they used NP hydraulics, which as you'll see are pretty different from yours.
The serial number would be nice too as it will give a better idea. The tractor number is under injector no. 1 as on Ford built tractors and also on the rear axle flange just ahead of the gear lever, and has a prefix with the last digit of the year and a letter to identify the application (tractor, lorry or industrial). The engine number is under injector no. 4, and will roughly be a bit more than double the tractor number if everything is original. Casting codes would also be great but Ebro codes are a bit of a mess.
Sandy
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Matty
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Matty »

Well now.... Got some more pics for you including the numbers on the engine. Gearbox flange is a bit of a mess but I took a photo anyway.

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I've just picked up the Howard with the engine practically on idle. Do you think, seeing as at low revs I'm getting very low pressure reading from the gauge, that this implies a leak that is some how after the lift cylinder but before the port in the right hand side of the lid?

Here are a few more pics of the Ebro ready to do battle with the Galician wilderness....

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The last one shows the third point on the lift with the flanges more or less in line. Thanks for that last PDF. From what I remember from when I went in there, that's exactly the set up on the Ebro. Would like to have a go at making tool T.8520 and checking the sensitivity of the draft (draught?) control with the torque wrench.

The manual I was using is in Spanish, covers a whole range of similar Ebros, is not the best quality but had enough info for me to be happy with the feeler gauge adjustments when I put the axel lid back together. Here it is, or at least the second half of it:

https://pdfslide.net/automotive/manual- ... rte-2.html

So I think best plan for me is to do the immediate work pending with the tractor in the fields and then take the lid off the axel again and see what I can find in the way of possible leaks, plus strip and inspect pump. Oil is contaminated with water again which inspect is running down the lift cross shaft which has a lot of play in it's bushes. Probably should put a tarp over the tractor when it's parked outside, but then I wouldn't be able to look at it.

Once more unto the breach, dear friends....

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Billy26F5 »

The pics are quite enough to see the numbers. the tractor number is 2T10578, so from the later half of 62 but earlier than later as I think the disk brakes were fitted in late 62. The engine number however points at a replacement, but I'm strugling to make much sense of it at the moment. The tractor number on the block was however correctly made to match the original tractor number, which suggests this was a dealer replacement (although many would leave such things alone, making the engine's origin clear but perhaps hiding the tractor's actual number). Some casting codes will help to pinpoint these details. You have a modified underswept exhaust there, very few tractors here including all Ebro's are fitted with correct vertical exhausts, although the parts must have been available as Ford were making them for much of the rest of the world (but not Australia, there the Yuba spark arrestor was the only option).
I'm not too sure what your problem is at the moment but I suggest you try position control and see how that works. Looks to me that the main control spring is correctly adjusted, you shouldn't really need the special tool but if you want to check that I'm keen to see how close you are to the correct setting. The manual you posted is for the much later 155E and so on, they all use the NP hydraulics which are different from yours, as far as I know the Ford manual is the only one to cover the earlier Super Major hydraulics (and all Super Ebro's too). Water in the rear axle is quite common, and it normally goes down the bolt holes as there's nothing sealing them (this is when it rains, you then get internal condensation too but that doen't normally cause as much trouble as rain does). So definitely try to keep it under cover, as that is always better. I would start by lifting the top cover again and checking the feed pipe area before checking the pump (you can do that easily by plugging the feed pipe and turning the PTO by hand, if it gets very hard to turn the pump is ok but if it doesn't and the pressure in the pipe feels low check the drive gear key first. These pumps rarely give trouble and they're expensive to fix if they're really gone but most that do need dismantling only need new o-rings) then checking the internal settings and all seals and then trying it and seeing what happens. That's quite a big rotovator, be careful with stones as they can cause real trouble to both tractor and implement.
Sandy
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Hair Bear
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Hair Bear »

Nice set up.
As it lifts the rotorvator well, could it be an iffy gauge? I would have thought if the measured value is correct it would struggle.
Rotorvators can be quite brutal to a tractor - Is it new to you? If so it's worth taking the shear bolt out and giving the pto a spin just to make sure it's not locked up, or if it's a slip clutch type then loosen the bolts to confirm it's releasing properly and the springs are set otherwise you might be taking a dive in that back end sooner than you expected!
Although a rotorvator or power harrow are soil contact equipment they should be operated in position control not draft. That can have some 'interesting' effects.

An observation on the post knocker, they generally rely on a small diameter short stroke ram to get the rapid oil dump for the weight drop. A larger ram will discharge slower and nullify the effect.
You're supposed to eat greens, not drive 'em!

Matty
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Matty »

Thanks for all that Sandy, you're a mine of information. It's nice to actually know what model of tractor I own. I think it was the previous owners who originally told me it was a super 55.

Finished working it for now and can manage without it. For a while.so gonna have the lid off in the next day or so. Will do the test you mentioned, blocking the pipe and turning the pump etc. If necessary I'll strip and examine the pump itself. Rest assured I'll be back it touch to let you know what I find.

Hi Hair Bear. Gauge was bought new for this task so should be ok. And yeah the lift seems strong to me so that's why I was wondering if it can lose pressure between the lift cylinder and where I've got the gauge attached.

The Howard has a slip clutch which I've loosened right off and spun up when i bought it. Wasn't sure on how much to tighten the springs. 1½ full turns seemed to slip too easily settled on about 2 full turns in the end I think. Been using it to attack 4m high brambles cos I've no brush cutter. Lot of untangling after use but it flies through it. Will stick to position control in future.

Narrow piston ram would be favourite for a few reasons. I've got at least a 100kg weight under construction and its nearly 10:1 mechanical advantage. According to manufacturer's graph at 50bar id need at least a 50mm piston which is a lot of fluid (3.14×2.5x2.5x25cm stroke errrr = 490ml ?) to squirt back to the axel so this is another incentive to get to the root of the low pressure problem on the Ebro.

Really appreciate the advice from both of you. I'm a bit out on a limb here, though the place is fantastic and the locals are great, so it's reassuring to be in contact with folk in the know.

Hair Bear
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Hair Bear »

From memory, the slip clutch was adjusted to a setting with a feeler gauge in the spring coils - just don't ask me what the setting was. The reason for mentioning it was that they were often seen as trouble and so were done up dead tight and coilbound.
You're supposed to eat greens, not drive 'em!

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Billy26F5 »

I'm relieved you're using the rotovator for that as the thing about stones should be less relevant but be careful just the same. I would test position control before taking the top cover off just in case, as qualitrol is really only for ploughing, and if position control is ok it willl give you better working. I know you say the gauge is new but see if it can be checked, as I don't think you'd be able to lift that rotovator on only 750 psi, also how many corrections do you get (a typical way of seeing how the leaks affect it)? Finally if you do have lots of corrections see how pulling the external service valve affects the operation (does the implement stay put or sink down). All of this might help avoid lifting the top cover again, which I think is worth it.
There is much missunderstanding about Ebro, and much of what you find on internet is wrong, for a full story I suggest you see this post: viewtopic.php?p=61450#p61450
Sandy
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Matty
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Matty »

Agreed, it would be nice if we could avoid taking the lid off again. I've actually done more with the cultivator in position control than the draught control and it seems to work OK.

One strategy might be to just buy the size ram I'd already planned to get, with a 30mm piston, and if the tractor won't have it then go inside. I'll check and see how it does for corrections and the play around with the external service valve tomorrow and have another think. I knocked up the testing tool so I can put a torque wrench on the 3rd point yoke and see the draught control in action. Another job for the morning.

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I had a read of the Ebro post a few days ago as it happens. Very detailed and informative. The last Ebros I've seen were Nissan Trade panel vans. In the end they went the same way as Pegaso which I think Iveco swallowed up. Got a bit nostalgic myself with the talk of Roots 2 stroke diesels towards the end of the article....

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Billy26F5 »

I wouldn't get the ram till you're sure everything is working nicely, make sure you don't let the lever stay in the raising position when using the external service valve. You could retry the pressure test with the external service valve out though as that will cause the relief valve to open (as specified in the manual), but be aware that when the relief valve opens the pressure will drop from 2500 psi to 300 psi as you have the earlier unloading type relief valve. I like your tool, always very satisfying to make something like that. Hope your reading is good. Talking of old Spanish companies, Barreiros is another dissappearance, and there was an odd case where Barreiros actually fitted engines to E27N's (an old post here: viewtopic.php?p=8879#p8879), many Barreiros tractors are still in use but I would think less than Ebro's (with Major parts in them). I still sometimes see a late Ebro lorry carrying gas bottles but they too are dissappearing.
Sandy
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Matty
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Matty »

Hi again. So the good news is a got a reading off 170 bar (2465 PSI) with the engine running at a sensible speed. This was with the gauge attached to the axel lid in draught control; I hadn't realised how precise you have to be in finding the neutral position, so main problem is human error. Pulling the knob on the external chest out didn't seem to effect it. Still couldn't manage to get more than 50bar out of the external service port. How much is the lever with the flow control knob meant to turn from side to side? Mine turns very little and the knob is siezed. I've got leaks here so for now I think I'll just dismount and strip the external service chest and leave the axel lid in place. I'm pretty sure I didn't look at this when I repaired the hydraulics before.

I looked for adjustments with the rotovator at half mast and was surprised to see it perking back up every 6-7 seconds. Hadn't noticed that before.

In other news..... tried the new tool in the 3rd point yoke and the arms raised slightly when I applied 65 Nm of torque to the tool. Which, stone me, is what the manual says it should be. No one was more surprised than me, except possibly the tractor. However, when it does this it pushes the control lever down slightly out off neutral position, so when you release the torque wrench the lift starts to fall. Could be cos the friction plate in the control spindle has had it- it more or less fell to bits as I remember it.

Any thoughts?

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Billy26F5 »

The lever needs to have its nut torqued so that at the knob (on the original lever) you need to exert 10 lbs to move it, that should stop it moving when the draught changes (assuming the cork friction disk is in not too terrible condition). Sounds like you do have several leaks, the external service plate sounds like a good starting point. Pleased to see your pressure and draught tests were as good as that. The flow control valve should move quite a bit, but if you remove the external service plate you can sort it then. It's currently in the fast flow position which is normally fine. Some of the plugs in that plate seem to need new o-rings too, I refer you to this post to fix them:viewtopic.php?p=57438#p57438
Sandy
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Matty
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Matty »

Hello again.

Slight delay to the proceedings as I got the nod from the beef farmers to come and get the manure and needed the tractor to drag it into one of the fields.

Took the external block off yesterday and stripped it, so I understand a bit more about how it works. Freed off the siezed min flow stopper thimble so there more movement now although it was clearly in max flow position already, as you said Sandy. You can even see the F and S markings now! I had a fair few imperial O rings so I'm hoping I've managed to seal up all the plugs. I only had metric roll pins here but I managed to close them up in the vice and make them fit, several of the originals being too far gone. Here's a photo which explains my main leak, sort of....

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What you can't see in the photo is that the gasket failed I believe because the O ring, in the smaller off the two holes where the gasket is broken, had been squashed by the gasket. This is obviously my home made gasket from 2 years ago and the chest is located by the rather baggy UNC bolts and not dowelled onto the axel lid. Hopefully I'll do a better job on the next gasket and maybe stick it to the underside of the chest with the O rings rather than lay it on the upper face of the lid for reassembly.

The info on getting the plugs out was bang on. Was more than a bit surprised to find I actually had both sizes off ball bearing here , more or less, and managed to remove plug F using same technique cos I left all my useful Unified nuts and bolts in Malaga (least I brought the ball bearing collection).

Wasn't 100% happy about the orientation of the flow rate control shaft as it can apparently fit either way round. I put it with the recess in the shaft towards the side of the tube with gallery opening, if that makes any sense. More worryingly, I couldn't get the flow rate control valve out, if indeed there is one. The plug and spring came out easily enough with a tap as per the manual, but what is the spring doing? The shoulder it locates on in the bottom of that drilling won't move so had to just reassemble as is.

I know I should wait and order the proper O rings and gasket but I need the tractor so gonna put it back together while I wait for proper parts to arrive. Can you recommend European supplier?

Will be back in touch after the relevant testing...

Matty
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Matty »

And here I am.

So no leaks yet, but still nothing over 50bar from the external port. Managed to get auxiliary service control knob stuck I'm the out position when I ran the lift right up in position control. It would only go back in once I let the pressure in the system drain away. This doesn't happen in draught control, but still only 50bar.

Reassembly went OK. Realised my first gasket had loads of unnecessary holes so went with just the ones in the top of the lid.

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I found it useful to drop the assembly onto the lid using 9mm drill bits as a guide to try and avoid the gasket moving out of place.

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So I suppose it's have the lid off next and have a look for a leak internally?

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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Billy26F5 »

Not trying to dissapoint you but this is what the gasket is meant to be like.
https://www.newhollandrochester.com/wp- ... 189GF9.jpg
Before you lift the top cover (which by the way looks like a Ford casting as do the external service plate and the flow control valve) again look at the check valve if when you press the clutch and the implement sinks the gear lever seems to get stiffer and hold the sinking (not a common problem, but Davie has it and it's one of our pending jobs). And see if pulling out the external service valve holds the implement or not as that will help to locate the leak.
Still find the early Super Ebro's odd to look at with the drum brakes.
Sandy
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Sjors
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Sjors »

Hello Sandy,
I was wondering why O-rings and a gasket are used?
The later Ford valve blocks only have O-rings en no gasket, right? With the mating surfaces steel-to-steel.
I never used a combination of these. Or is this just a typical Fordson era construction?

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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Billy26F5 »

All Fordson plates have a gasket and o-rings. I didn't know the worldwide tractors were different in this sense, but as they were all new designs they would have reconsidered everything.
Sandy
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Matty
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Matty »

Hi. Thanks for the photo of the gasket Sandy. I'd already realised it needs the hole under the flow rate channel from looking back at my photos. Will have another go at that tomorrow

It holds the cultivator up fine over night. Pulling the auxiliary knob out doesn't seem to effect it. I'm about to buy a spool block to control things I plan to run off the tractors hydraulics and the one I'm looking at has a built in relief valve so I'm considering connecting the spools to the hole on the RHS of the lid as this gives 180bar in draught control neutral position, unless there's a reason I shouldn't.

You mentioned Barrieros the other day, then one off my mates sent me these....

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For sale cheap apparently I'm the local scrapyard

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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Hair Bear »

Sort of a 60's toy robot vibe to it. I wouldn't want to be on and off it all day.
Bit of a tractor theme there - Massey 394s in the back ground, can't identify the red machine with the lid off, and love to see more of the crane. :D
You're supposed to eat greens, not drive 'em!

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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Emiel »

Looks like a Bareiros with Hanomag dna, isn’t it?
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1949, E27N 1950, E1A Diesel 1953, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Billy26F5 »

It was officially Hanomag-Barreiros for a while, and it was a bit like Ebro in many cases, making Hanomag tractors called Barreiros, but not always, as some were in-house designs or from other companies. Most cabs here are a bit like that, but the advantage of this design is that the top can come off allowing clearance for trees, and other similar things. I would get that before it gets destroyed.
You shouldn't use the RH side plug as there is no control there, the external service flow is for this kind of thing. If it holds weight up overnight you're very lucky, most of these hydraulics are in much worse condition (Davie goes from top to bottom in half an hour with nothing on but with the external service valve pulled out he holds for a couple of days near the top). I still don't understand why you're not getting full pressure from the external service tapping, Try doing the test with the arms and control lever down and see if that works better. The fact you got good pressure means it's gettable, do remember the relief valve will cause the pressure to drop when it opens.
Sandy
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Matty
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Matty »

Hi again. Apologies for long absence.

I'm a bit embarrassed as I think the whole issue of suspected low pressure was due to a misunderstanding on my part. I'd been connecting the pressure testing gauge to the aux port on the external equipment chest and later to the unregulated port on the RHS of the axel lid, but I have not been using a T piece and flow control tap, so it was throwing the pressure relief valve as soon as I pulled the aux service knob out I think.

Anyway I got the fence post driver built, which was the original reason for wanting to be sure the hydraulics on the Ebro are up to spec. and it works fine. I weighed the components of the driving weight as I assembled it and I think its on about 120Kg currently, which is enough to drive a 20cm diameter chestnut post 60cm into the ground as a gate post for one of the fields, so its game on for the fencing work.

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Not surprisingly the geometry of the radius arm has a huge effect on the rams ability to lift the weight, and there's a trade off in mechanical advantage between the lower and upper runs, but it seems to work pretty well over the part that gets the most use, so happy days. According to the maths of it I'd say the aux port is putting out about 150-170 bar.

Thanks again for the advice and PDFs I received earlier this year. I had the lid off the axel again just to make sure there was nothing silly going on in there but apart from a leak from the unloading valve it seemed ok. Made the service support bracket this time which made life easier.

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I replaced the O rings in the control and unloading valves when I serviced the hydraulics previously with generic parts, so if I'm going to fix this leak I'll need to find some more specific replacement parts....

Billy26F5
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Re: Super Major low hydraulic pressure

Post by Billy26F5 »

Glad to see you've got that working and very impressed with your skills on the support bracket. I think it would be nice to have some pics of the brakes so that the very unusual mixture of parts in use is clear. I don't know if you've seen the recent Super Billy news but I'll post pics so you have a reasonable idea of what a Super 55 looks like (very similar to NP Super Major's, while the Super Ebro is more like earlier Super Major's), although Super Billy is quite different in many ways (here with Billy and Davie in the first ever pics with all three running simultaneously). The hydraulics, brakes and PTO are all visibly different, also the gear ratios are different but you can't see that from outside, with a similar situation with the head.
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If you ever get to see ford and fordson on film 7 you'll see a Super Ebro brand new, a very nice sight.
Good luck with the fences.
Sandy
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