Dual Hydraulics

This forum is for the Fordson New Major, including the Super Major and the Power Major.
Mike Kuscher
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Dual Hydraulics

Post by Mike Kuscher »

I really need a second hydraulic valve, for operating the arm of my hedge cutter independantly of the 3pt hydraulics.
Up to now, I have been using a 'blocking frame' that I made up, so that it would stop the arms moving and divert pressure to the auxhilary pipe.
This works but it is a 'fiddle' to fit and is clearly affecting the seals over a period of time.
Trouble is that the 'accessory valve' they originally made are as rare as hens teeth and, as evidenced on ebay, are fetching hundreds of pounds when they become available.
I'm wondering, is it possible to get hold of a standard 'single' valve and modify it (blanking plate for example) to give a second auxhilary supply that is independant of the 'arms'?
Anyone got any ideas, or a spare valve I could experiment with?

Mike
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Post by Brian »

Mike,

You might find a s/h spool valve block from a digger or hedge cutter. All you would need then is a flow and return pipe and you could control as many services as you have levers for.

The other way would be an electric solenoid valve bank. Again the flow and return pipes but this time instead of levers, a little electrical switch box.
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Post by Mike Kuscher »

Brian,

OK, I'm 'being thick' here, but I don't see how that works?
The hydraulic system is internally built in.
I have to operate the existing lever to either cause flow or allow return flow?
So, if I 'tap off' somewhere with a secondary valve bank, doesn't that mean that the lever has to be in the 'raise 3pt' position to get hydraulics through to the secondary valve bank, instead of working independantly from it?

Mike
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Post by Brian »

Mike,

On a Major without the special lever and tapping, everything would come through the main lever and therefore the linkage circuit.

Even on a Super/Dexta the oil flow from the pump has to be diverted away from the linkage by the Auxillary Service Chest.

If you fit spool valves/DAR valves you can do it on those models but on the Major you need the front control chest to get an independent flow.
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Post by Mike Kuscher »

Brian,

I'm not sure 'the penny has dropped' on what you are telling me.
Are you saying the following?
Take a second supply pipe from somewhere on the pump delivery side (drill casting and take Tee piece of the internal pipe?).
Take this to 'any old' valve bank I can get hold of, then take a return to somewhere back into the casting again?

Obviously, I need to keep the original 3pt operational whilst independantly operating the single hydraulic cylinder on the hedge cutter.

If I am understanding correctly, any recommendations on where to take second tapping from, where to take return to and where I may get a suitable valve from?

Anybody else done this?
Replies to 'Virgin at fordsontractorpages'. :?

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Post by Tmac »


Mike what Brian is saying, is that essentially that your current DAR valve actually just becomes the supply line for the NEW valving system which would be either a fixed (only 2 valves cast together) or a stack valve system which can have as many as your room will allow. These would be pressure either end of the valve, 2 position 2 way.

These "stack valves" are bolted together in a parallel stack, with one pressure in and one pressure out center feed 2 way. These feed and return tubes in and out would be connected to your service implement. Two lines required for each unit. This would be the optimal setup. These type of valves are common on loaders, backhoes and machines of the industrial variety. These type valve are NOT cheap to buy new, but any amount of valves can be added. There are two types one has the inlet port cast in one valve the other has the outlet port cast in, a RH valve and a LH valve 2 valves required min. The other has plates that are bolted to the ports, usualy the same port plates fit either side by turning upside dowm to be either a RH or LH port. You would be best served by using what is called center loaded valves. These require that you manually hold to either side of the valve to activate the hydraulic service device. Plumbing is straight forward on this system. Pressure from the DAR valve or tractor system from the pressure port then return would be plumbed to the return to your reservoir, the tractors axle. In the case you having a DAR valve this would be the other line on the valve. By using these valves your DAR valve would be set only to feed this valve block and not to be used as directional control for your service units i.e. the cylinders of your implement. The DAR valve would just become the "on" "off" of your new system.

There are 2 more ways to do this. You could use a single valve that would act as a shuttle valve. This single valve would be used to shuttle between the 2 service units in your implement. This valve setup would need to be a end loaded, meaning the valve stays in the position you set it. This would select either service point then you would use your DAR valve for control as normal. This setup requires a bit more complex plumbing. But is workable with much less expensive valve.

The last option would be to use ball valves to accomplish what the last valve did internal of the valve. There would be at least 4 required. You would have to shut and open the valves manually, remembering the correct positions of the ball valve to direct flow to the service unit desires. This would be the least expensive to install but a very complex plumbing job, not to mention the inconvenience of it use and I believe more actual space required for the installation. Lots of plumbing to give you a real headache ;((











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Post by JC »

Mike
I have a Power Major, that I bought for parts, that has a spool valve mounted on the fender. It gets its supply from a tapped hole behind the lift lever. The return goes back in through the rear-end fill plug. The tractor has never run since I've had it, so I don't know how or if it works. I'll post a picture of the place that the supply hose is attached, and maybe the "Grumpy Grandad" can tell us more about it.

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Post by Brian »

The easiest way Mike is to find a front valve chest. That would enable you to work both arms and cylinder. All other ways would mean the arms would be fixed and the oil supply taken from the trailer pipe port on the existing valve bank, under your left leg, to a series of valves as Tmac describes.

This is the problem with the Major hydraulics, its not easy to use arms and cylinders together.
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Post by Mike Kuscher »

Guys,

Right! That is what was worrying me. I could not see how the additional valve set could operate unless the original valve was used for the supply. This would mean that the lift arms would not work independant of the additional service.

That's no good to me! I need to have an extra hydraulic service that operates independant of the lift arms, so that both can be used.

Looking forward to the photos from JC, I suspect it may be more difficult on a 'standard' Major to a 'Power' but, it may give me 'insperation'.

Failing that, looks like I'm looking for an 'affordable' second valve for the Major (chance would be a fine thing).
Now, if Kev wanted to 'lose' the one he found ... 8)

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Post by Tmac »


Mike
Sorry I missed the point of your problem. That you are dealing with the the old Major. I haven't had to deal with this problem for years. As my 54 is located 400 miles from where I now live and have here only Dexta's and Supers to use.

I have a 54 that had the same problem. That tractor came with a loader that had a front mounted aux pump. Basically a aux Hyd system independent of the tractors internal system, leaving the 3pt hitch fully independent. When I removed the front loader arms, so I could use it to farm with, I just tapped into the loader valves that were mounted for aux Hyds.
But due to the very poor mounting of the front pump I later removed that too. I had the same problem that you have now. I needed a tilt cylinder for my rear mounted pallet mover.

But as you say chance played in, I bought a front valve chest for it off Ebay. I bought for only $25, my valve is an after market replacement, works decent, but is cheaply made. While I have seen a number of these after market FMD DAR valves sell on eBay never for more than $50 or so, I have never seen a OEM unit available anywhere in the USA. There may be a way to tap into the front ports, but I don't know how, I just never had to figure out how.

I think that without luck of finding that valve chest for a fair (cheap) price you are stuck. Or figuring out how to tap the front ports easily you are stuck to either awkward or expensive methods.

All the old American tractors had this same problem, mostly fixed with the addition of the front mounted pump. But now to add an extra pump is easier by the use of the flat pump that goes on the PTO, allowing the PTO still to be used. The problem here on the pump on the PTO on the Major and other old tractors is the lack of live PTO. Not encluding the fact these pumps here in the USA run over $500!!

If you could find an old used electric pump this could be used. Here in the USA those are all over in old electric tub skid movers, junk yards are full of them. Pumps run from $35 to $65. Its not a good option but it would work and not so expensive either. ;((

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Post by Mike Kuscher »

Tmac,

Thanks for the suggestion. Trouble with an external pump is you also need an external oil tank somewhere as well.
I am still not giving up.
A rare second valve OEM went on the UK ebay site a few days ago.
It was around 350 GBP when I last had chance to look, at least 8 hours before bidding finished, so my guess is it ended over 400. Ridiculous money!

Actually trying to find a standard fitment single valve, if possible, because logic tells me that it must be possible to modify it as a secondary. It should only be a case of finding the correct ports/channels to block off.

Failing that, I'll have to get 'creative' :)

Mike

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Post by JC »

Here's the picture, Mike. This hose supplies pressure to the remote valve(s). I don't know if this is independent of the lift arms or not. If we need to, I can put it on a running Major and see what happens.

Image

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Post by Brian »

That will be tapped into the main pressure pipe from the pump, prior to the pressure relief valve. Not really reccomended and you would still have to use the lift arm circuit to build up pressure.
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Post by JC »

Now I'm starting to get the idea. The lift valve must be an open-center type. Unless the lever is in the "up" position, the oil goes through the valve and returns to the reservoir without making any pressure. To get pressure you have to block the pipe from the pump and divert the flow, you can't just tap into it. Is that how the factory remote valve works?

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Post by Brian »

Yes, thats how they all work. It was only John Deere that worked the other way and threw us all into confusion when they came over.
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Post by JC »

Thanks, Brian. At work we have equipment with open-center, closed-center, vane pumps, gear pumps, variable-displacement piston pumps, etc., so we can't just assume that a system is open-center, even though they are the most common type.

I'll stay out of Mike's thread now, unless I have something useful to add :D

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Post by essex pete »

Mike sorry to ask a daft question but why do you need to use the lift arms when operating the hedge trimmer?

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Post by Mike Kuscher »

Hi Pete,

Firstly, sorry for the delay. I have been subject to 'restricted access' for the past 48 hours, connected with work.

OK, why do I need to use the lift arms?
The 'hedger' connects onto the 3pt hitch and is powered by the PTO.
The 'hedger' has a single hydraulic cylinder, to raise, lower or 'flip' the arm to whichever side you want to cut.
The obvious instructions are that the connection to the PTO should be kept as level (horizontal) as possible.
The single hydraulic cylinder for the 'hedger' arm derives hydraulic power for the auxhiliary (tipping trailer) 'take off'.
Hence, if you raise the arm, you would also raise the 3pt hitch and 'hedger'.
If you lower the arm, you would also lower the 3pt hitch and the hedger.
Either way, you 'knacker' the PTO by taking it 'way out' of horizontal.
At the moment, I have been 'overcoming' this problem, by using Brian's suggestion of makng a 'blocking frame' that connects between the lift arms and the fixed top link of the PTO.
This 'blocks' the 3pt hitch from moving, causes the 'valve' to divert all pressure to the auxhiliary take off.
It works but the 3 pt hitch is always trying to overcome the 'blocking frame' and, over the last few years, it is clearly damaging the hydraulic seals, so that the 3pt hitch 'drops' over a shorter and shorter time, whereas it used to 'hold' its height for 'days on end'.
Get the idea?

My only way around this is to try and find (or engineer) an independant feed to the 'hedgers' lift cylinder from the single control that operates 'arms' and 'auxhiliary' together.

To give you an idea of the hydraulic pressures our 'old girls' are capable of...
My first attempt was to try the old trick of 'chaining' the arms in position, by using a lenght of very expensive, high tensile chain. Forged and welded links of 3/8" cross section. This was wound round the lift arms and the back axle twice, then secured with a high tensile 'shackle'. First operation of the hydraulics, instead of just diverting the 'flow' to the auxhiliary, snapped the chain in about 3 seconds !!!

Mike
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Post by Brian »

Mike,

I would not think the frame is damaging your system. With your hedger tapped into it, the only load you have on the system is the one required to lift the single acting ram that angles the head. This is far less than the design spec of the tractor.

The hedger frame is fitted, therefore it is stopping the internal ram/lift arms from moving up or down. When you operate the lift lever, as the oil cannot move the ram it is diverted to the external ram and the only pressure in the system is what is required to move that. I would suspect that is around 600 to 700 psi.

When that ram reaches the end of its travel, the pressure build up in the system reaches the PR Valve setting, this dumps the pump flow straight back to the rear axle and is the loud "click" that you here. The lift control lever then has to be cycled to lower before the lift can operate again as the PRV is held off.

All this would be happening if you were using implements on the normal lift arms. In fact load on the lift arms causes more problems than external units. On a tractor, travelling along the road with a 1/2 ton plough on the lift arms, Ford measured loads of between 10 and 12 tons hitting the ram cylinder. That is why all the later tractors were fitted with a "ram cylinder safety valve" that blew off when these sort of loads occured. (Dropping into one of the dew ponds we call pot holes on Norfolk roads). Your load (hedger) is supported by the frame so there are no shock loads on the hydraulic parts.

I would suspect that your piston seal is worn due to normal wear and tear, if you are suffering "lift droop". Perhaps if you contacted some of the "advertisers" on the site and dropped a couple of those little blue pills into the oil, your problems would go away! :shock:

Failing that, a new piston seal is called for. :D

Have you ever had the lift pressure checked? People were always adding washers to the valves under the seat to try and get the old girls to lift more. I will slip my gauge into my coat pocket when I come to the show.
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external cylinders

Post by patch »

Was there a front mounted pump originally offered for loaders etc.
The tank would be small wouldn't it ? I have a friend who powers a loader from a pto mounted pump. I'm sure yooou have looked into these options.
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Post by Mike Kuscher »

Brian,

I like the idea of the blue pills :oops:

Anyway, on a serious note, pressure setting? Now that is a thought.

The frame I made up is a real 'fiddle' to fit.
Connect hedger to arms and top link, at the same time connect frame to top link only. Then lift to remove stands. Lower to correct level for PTO. Now carefully 'almost' tap out the pins on the lower arms until they are 'flush' with the lift arms, 'coax' the lower part of the frame into position, now 'juggle' to line up each pair of holes and tap the pins back through the arms and frame, to 'pin' together. Now finally connect PTO. (HSE nightmare).

Part of the problem is the limited movement of the frame, because I found straight away that I had to weld additional cross-braces, even though it's substancial steel. The other problem is that, even with the extra bracing, by the time I've finished hedge cutting and I'm ready to take it back off, the hydraulic pressure has 'sprung' the frame wider at the bottom (yet again).
Each year, the first job is to 're-adjust' the width of the frame, at the bottom, with the assistance of a very large 'Birmingham Screwdriver' so, maybe pressure is wrong :?
(Don't forget that gauge).
The frame, by the way, is made out of 1.5" right angle section steel (black drawn) just under 1/4" thick.

Not having any luck with finding an additional valve.
The 'original' one went over a week ago on ebay for somewhere near £400.
Had been watching a 'special' one, made by McConnell which turned up at the begining of the week. It replaced the 'front plate' on the Majors single valve and gave an additional output specifically for a hedger. It held at £65 all week then, in the last hour, shot up dramatically in price and the bidding was so quick I missed it. (Ended up at something like £130 + Vat + postage)

Patch,
Front mounted pump no good for me. Rear mounted pump? have not seen one that looks suitable yet but, thanks for the suggestion. If I ever find one, it may be 'a way out'.

Mike
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Post by JC »

Mike and Brian,
Is this the type of DAR valve that you've been talking about?

Image

Image

Sorry about the quality of the pictures. I'm still not happy about not having an optical view finder on my camera.

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Post by Brian »

Yes and No JC, :D

Yes, its a DAR valve. Yes its in the right place, but No its nothing like the one we are looking for. It would be ideal though.

The one we want is just like another Fordson valve chest complete with lever and quadrant. I have a picture somewhere that I will post.
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Post by JC »

I'd like to see a picture of a real Fordson one, Brian. I've never seen one. The ones that I have must be the kind that Tom was talking about. I'll have to see if I can find a manufacturer's name on them.

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Post by jan »

hi all

here are some pictures,that is what Mike whant and need.
this is an original Fordson Part!!!

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

and a raised Power take off

Image


i hope this will clear some questions


mbg jan

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