Thrust washer on lift cross-shaft.

[Mervyn Spencer]

Please help, is it important that the thrust washer between the ram arm(right side) be fitted? The parts manual page 30 shows it as item 50, but reading the workshop manual page 22, top of page point 12 there is no mention of it when reassembling. Also see Fig 36 at bottom of page.

Why I am asking the question is that after having new bushes fitted the washer in question is not there . Speaking to the engineering works owner he tells me that he has never been aware of the washer before.

[Brian]

Yes it is important, I have never seen one put together without it. Stops everything moving about on the cross shaft.

[charlie63]

Brian,

When I stripped my lift cover and shaft recently there was no thrust washer fitted. I had a look in the parts manual and it says next to the part number for the thrust washer that it is only required when replacing the original lift arm. Correct me if im wrong please as ive now a bit of a dilema as well as when I go to rebuild it all I have no thrust washer. i will be using the original lift arm.

[Mervyn Spencer]

Thanks Brian, that's how I picked up that there was no thrust washer as the cross shaft was was sliding very freely from left to right. Something else I noticed was that two o rings had been placed on the lift arm splines which to me was rather odd. I assume the engineers felt that they the o rings would alleviate the movement.

[Brian]

The thrust washer E117-GF-9 is on all the Dexta range from 1958 until production ceased.

In my original parts book there is no mention about the different arms and I cannot quite see what difference they would make. The washer is there to help limit sideways movement.

As I said I have never seen a tractor without one and that is a lot of lifts, but as always, I am happy to be proved wrong, never to old to learn.

The "O" rings on the splines was a way to limit oil leakage along the splines but I have never come across a Dexta that suffered from that problem as there is little splashing about in there that high up, some of the problem with wear and rusting in the linkage and on the Position Control pin.

[Mervyn Spencer]

Brian, any idea where I could buy the thrust washer please, my guys in RSA don't have it. I will carry on searching to see where I might get hold of one. Do you perhaps have any idea what it looks like and can one be custom made? Thanks Mervyn.

[Dunggatherer]

Gentlemen i will check my projects.
I might have washers, but i am not 100 % sure.
This weekend i will open up my two spare rear ends, and check for washers.
If i have them, i will let you know.

Regards, Rob

[Mervyn Spencer]

Hi Rob, that is so thoughtful of you thank very much. This week I disposed of two hydraulic tops at the scrap dealer not realising that I might need to check them out. However I only notice this past Friday that the washer had been omitted The old story you get rid of something and a couple of days later you wished you had not got rid of it. That is rather a tough job you are putting yourself too Rob, wish I could just jump on a plane and come and assist you.
I was actually thinking of visiting the scrap dealer and buying back the top ,that is if it is not in China by now. If he does have it I wont press the shaft out because I know I will not succeed. The plan is to cut it to pieces and retrieve the washer. Might sound crazy but worth the attempt. Thanks again Rob for the offer if it woks out. I will keep you informed of my plan should it work out. Need the "A Team".

[Brian]

I too have a couple of tops cluttering up my workshop, ask Dewaltdisney . On one the lift shaft is not too tight as it loosen up when I took the lift arms off for another memeber and I have all the linkage out of it. I can see the thrust washers on both so I know I have them.

Not a bad idea to break them out if you are careful but just think of the other "rare" parts you are going to destroy.

[charlie63]

Brian,
I am out in Angola until the 23rd March but will definately take you up on your offer of the cross shaft that you mentioned in my own postings that you may have lying around. The thrust washer would be great as well and of course im not expecting them for nothing. I was thinking more about the new MF one that I purchased and think that with the splines being off centre it could put undue stress on the hydraulic arm. At least with the genuine parts I know that my lift shouldnt give me any problems. Rob has already kindly helped me out with upper lift arms. The help and support from fellow enthuisiasts on here is great. I will be in touch on when I return to the good old U.K.

[Dunggatherer]

Gentlemen, i have good news and less good news.

I found one thrust washer in two lift covers.
I would love to help both of you but i only have one washer.
The washer is nothing more than a washer. Nothing fancy.
A flat steel washer with an outer diameter of 68.2 mm, an inner diameter of 51.2 mm and a thickness of 2.1 mm.
When mounted there seems to be room for more thickness.
I can imagine washers wearing out in 60 years of lube-less use, but have not found remains down in the rear axle yet.
So maybe these washers are avaliable on the market, otherwise we may have to figure out a way to get both you gentlemen a washer.

The lift-arm-cross shaft came out too, in excellent shape, Charlie...

Brian, how about a joint effort?

[charlie63]

Rob,
Many thanks for the information. Since the washer is nothing special im sure I can find something very close to those measurements in my many boxes of spare parts for the cranes out here in my workshop. The offer of the cross shaft is much appreciated and will save Brian having to strip down his lift covers that he has. I will be in touch regarding that as I still have your email address.
Mervyn,
I hope you manage to retrieve your lift tops from the scrap yard. I am starting to gather a few spares during my restoration with all the parts that I have replaced and have stored them just in case in future someone may get the use of them.
Thanks again for your generosity guys its much appreciated.

[Mervyn Spencer]

Hi Gentlemen, firstly to Rob, thank you once again for the offer and for going the extra mile in stripping the two lift covers. The measurements that you have quoted are also a great help thanks Rob. I have also wondered why the thrust washer was that thin, when as you say Rob there is still space for a thicker washer, and also why only on the right side. Probably because when ploughing the tractor is slanted to the right and the shaft slips to the right by force of gravity(my opinion) . Rob you could have tossed the washer to see whether it was heads or tails

Charlie, still pondering that option of going to the scrap yard after seeing the measurements of the washer that Rob kindly listed. I turned the idea of keeping all my replaced parts until my project was complete but got impatient. Unfortunately that is the price you pay for been impatient

Brian hi, could you possibly enlighten us on why such a narrow washer please?

Thanks again gents for your assistance.

[kiwimc]

Hi guys.

In Section 8 of my manual ["This manual is free downloaded from http://www.fordson-dexta.de"] between pages 3 & 4 are two figures "taken from an I & T Shop Manual".
They are respectively:
"Fig. FO563 - Exploded view of early Fordson Dexta hydraulic lift cover, cylinder & linkage...." This figure shows Part 34 - Ram lift arm (and no washer)
"Fig. FO564 - Exploded view of late hydraulic lift cover, cylinder & linkage. Ram lift arm (34A) and spacer (35) may be used to replace early production lift arm (34-Fig. FO563).... "

I'm getting the courage up to pull my top cover off. I've seen some of the horror pictures on this site. Also, having discovered bit by bit the atrocities committed on my dexta [two right-hand king pins, silastic on all the mating surfaces (including the engine - gulp), I could go on all night...] I'm worried what I may find. The control lever has been put on at 90 degrees to what it should be... punchline coming, wait for it... then cut and welded back on at 90 degrees to put it in correct position .
I guess I should be grateful there was oil in the diff and it looked OK.

Does anyone know if the triangular 'Spring seat support' (that covers the 'Plunger locking plate') is available new?

John Mc

[Tubal Cain]

The triangular support is available. It is listed both by Sparex and Agriline under the Fergie T20, Part Nos. S43760 and 4203 respectively.

Regards.

Gerald

[Brian]

I would believe nothing I saw in IT Manuals!

The Ford storemans parts book from the people who made the tractor says the thrust washer was used from 1958 to end of production.

Both top covers I have here are early, four hole quadrant types and both have thrust washers.

[Mervyn Spencer]

My trip to the scrap yard was fruitless, but I was able to buy a good 9 hole draw bar for a couple of bob. All my attempts to find a washer in RSA have failed. However I did read that the thrust washer is a hard tempered washer to protect the cast iron lift cover and arm in this instant from wear. I did go back to the gent(74 years old) who replaced my bushes last year and he said that on all the tractor lift tops he had worked on there were never any washes. Who do you believe these days?? How do you gents feel about manufacturing a washer to Rob's measurements and tempering it? I will have to get this old boy to do the job after all he has a press and lathes etc. After all my tractor is not going to do any hard work in my time.

[kiwimc]

Here is pre-'58 manual page showing no washer.

I guess if it is original without washer you may not need one (or won't be able to fit it in).
If it originally had washer, you will need to put one back in.

[kiwimc]

Thanks for the help with triangular seat support part numbers.

I am truly amazed at how much alike (the word identical springs to mind) a lot of the parts are. Pretty obvious the Ford guys wheeled a grey one into the factory, stripped it, stamped EnFo on everything and recast. Harry Ferguson must have been spitting!

[charlie63]

Just for information on the cross shaft thrust washer guys.
Ive managed to locate a company that supply flat spring steel hardened needle roller thrust washers which would fit the cross shaft. The O.D. of these are slightly larger at 69.85mm which is 1.5mm larger than the size of 68.2mm which Rob quoted which I cant see as being a problem. They are 2" or 50.8mm I.D. which is the O.D .size of the cross shaft. They are available in different thickness as well.
Part # and thickness as follows:
TRA3244 : 0.76mm thick. 2.29 +V.A.T. each
TRB3244 : 1.5mm thick. 6.81 + V.A.T. each
TRC3244 : 2.34mm thick. 3.59 + V.A.T. each
These can be obtained from simplybearings.co.uk

Charlie.

[Timeee]

I just thought I would throw my "sixpennorth worth" into this interesting case of the errant thrust washer. I have an original Fordson Dexta Tractor Parts List (1957/64) Reprinted May 1964 Supplement No4. The Hydraulic Power Lift illustration shows the Arm (HPL ram to cylinder) Part No 957E 545B. It also shows Washer (HPL shaft thrust) part no E117-GF-9 as stated by Brian previously. The details page states that the Thrust Washer was fitted from 11/58. There is a footnote at the bottom of the page against the Arm Part no (545B) which says "When replacing previous arm with 957E-545-B, E117-CF-9 washer must be supplied".

From the statement in the footnote, it would appear that an earlier Ram to Cylinder Arm, (possibly part no 957E-545-A?) was fitted from initial production to November 1958. Thereafter a slightly different arm (545-B) was fitted which needed the thrust washer (or allowed the thrust washer to be fitted). Alternatively, as Brian intimated, wear on the arm became evident on early tractors and Fordson introduced a thrust washer and different sized arm to stop failure of major parts on the HPL which couldn't be replaced easily (like the whole casing!).

Any comments on that theory?

Tim E

[Mervyn Spencer]

Hi Guys, sorry I have been rather silent over the last couple of days and have only seen the last two posts now. I am not in a position to comment on either post as I am not that clued up on technicalities. I eventually took my lift top to the engineers and asked him to make up a washer using Rob's measurements or something close to those. I will be picking up the top tomorrow but wont be able to comment on the result yet as I still have to assemble all the links etc. to the lift top. Slow process. I must just finally thank all those who have had an input to assist with the subject.

[charlie63]

Latest update regarding my crosshaft thrust washer now im back home from sunny Angola. Ive built up my crosshaft and piston ram that I so kindly received from Rob and fitted new crosshaft bushes pressed in flush with the outer face as stated in the workshop manual and I have fitted a thrust washer as well as recommended by Brian. When I measured all the parts I had a gap of around 2mm so purchased a thrust washer Part# TRB3244 which is 1.524mm thick and now when all fitted there is no gap or side movement on the piston ram. The new crosshaft bushes were purchased from Old20 Tractor parts Part # 1212009 which are listed for Fordson 8N/9N but are the correct/same dimensions as the Dexta.
Now the mystery deepens as to whether a thrust washer should be fitted or not as when I measured all my original parts they were exactly the same as all the parts that I have replaced but it was not originally fitted with a thrust washer. My tractor is an early 1958 and the parts manual states that a thrust washer is to be fitted if the original ram arm is replaced. With the thrust washer fitted the crosshaft still moves freely so it is going to be kept this way. See below pic with thrust washer fitted.

[Mervyn Spencer]

Hi Charlie, that is an interesting comment and also the photo shows the washer clearly but a lot thicker than my 2mm washer. I still have rather a lot of movement after the 2mm washer was fitted to my cross shaft, which leads me to the next question. Can you please if you have not yet replaced your top give me the length/width of the bushes. I think my bushes are too short, they do not extend into the inside of the top . I have just had another look at my top again and what I thought was your washer is the cam section of the arm . Another observation, is your washer on the right or left of the ram, i.e. looking at it as in the photo? Mine is on the left.

[charlie63]

Mervyn,
The bushes I fitted were 2.98" in length and matched exactly the bushes that I removed. I managed to get these from OLD20 Tractor Parts and since I received them I have noticed they now have them listed for the Dexta as previously they only had them listed for the Fordson 8N/9N models. The part # is 1212009.
The thrust washer is on the left hand side with the cover underside facing you as in the earlier photo. You will see the cover marked with a T and the shiny silver bit is the thrust washer. The one I fitted was 1.5mm thick and was purchased from Simplybearings.co.uk part # TRB3244 and was a perfect fit. The bushes have to be pressed in until flush with the outer face of the lift cover.Once I had this done there was no side movement and all seemed to be okay. Hope the info is of use and help to you. Good luck.