ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

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oehrick
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ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by oehrick »

Hi Folks, trying to help my neighbour out with a problem on his Ford 4600 about 1976.
Has a Lucas alternator with something called battery sensing ? 2 wires in addition to the 'power' plug, one in a socket marked 'S' runs back to a stud on the starter solenoid and appears to be permanently at battery volotage, another other one, brown, presumably the one through the ignition light vanishes into the loom - stripped the valence and upside down with a mirroe found a brown wire to the ignition switch, no connection so concluded a broken wire, laid in a temporary wire, still not charging, he picked up a new alternator which I fitted today, still not charging !

I'm probably missing something stupid but can't find either a viewable wiring diagram or a service manual other than Stateside spec. and with dynamo / regulator !

Anyone know where I can find a UK spec diagram or manual, or both please ?? or a positive test / workaround, as expected found various orphan and broken wires but none apparently relevant with this.........
Best regards
Rick - Bogside on Bure


1958 Diesel E1A Mk2 s/n 1470165 - still in working clothes

Emiel
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Re: ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

I’ll look for a diagram one of these days. I assume the sensor is separately wired to the alternator, as for fords special ones are available for the sensor type tractors.

Does the red light come up when tractor ignition is on but without running engine?

Rgds emiel.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1948, E27N 1950, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

oehrick
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Re: ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by oehrick »

Hi Emiel

The ignition light does not come on at the 1st key position but I have separately tested the bulb which is OK so discounts that as a problem.

I'm amazed I can find no wiring diagram on the web, perhaps it was not a very popular model ?
Best regards
Rick - Bogside on Bure


1958 Diesel E1A Mk2 s/n 1470165 - still in working clothes

Emiel
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Re: ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

If your light doesn’t come up, your field is not getting magnetised. Hope you understand, don’t find the right terminology in English in my head at this time.

So if bulb ok you should trace the wiring. Usually the route is ignition switch to bulb to dynamo F terminal. Not sure if the lucas alt is marked F but it is the small terminal.

To check you can disconnect the original wire and connect a wire from battery positive to the small terminal on the alt and Check whether it will charge. Best is with a 4W bulb in series to see whether it lights up or not.

If it doesn’t work you shlould test what the batt sensor does. I’m not sure what it does, does it sense the temp of the battery? If so then you you should be able to measure a certain resistance which should vary with increasing temp. Easy to check with a hair dryer.

Rgds emiel
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1948, E27N 1950, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

oehrick
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Re: ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by oehrick »

That's what I'm trying to do Emiel, I can't see any sign of a separate sensing module and am fairly sure there is a broken or poor connection, hence wanting a wiring diagram - hoping no one h :scratchhead: as done a 'cut & shut' repair in the past
Best regards
Rick - Bogside on Bure


1958 Diesel E1A Mk2 s/n 1470165 - still in working clothes

Emiel
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Re: ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by Emiel »

Hi,

Our 5610 had a sensor in the battery tray, below the battery. Doesn’t this tractor has a sensor there.

Rgds emiel
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1948, E27N 1950, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

oehrick
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Re: ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by oehrick »

No separate sensor as far as I can see Emiel
Best regards
Rick - Bogside on Bure


1958 Diesel E1A Mk2 s/n 1470165 - still in working clothes

Emiel
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Re: ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by Emiel »

Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1948, E27N 1950, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

oehrick
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Re: ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by oehrick »

Thanks Emiel,

I am going to have another look for a battery sensor as several things I have read hint at this being a regular problem - need to have the battery right out of tray, the loader may have got in the way, the info on trying a 200 ish ohm resistor as a substitute is the only 'get around' I've seen so far.

Let you know how I get on and appreciate the support, can't be rocket science :scratchhead:
Best regards
Rick - Bogside on Bure


1958 Diesel E1A Mk2 s/n 1470165 - still in working clothes

oehrick
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Re: ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by oehrick »

Down to the farm yet again but with a crowbar and head torch, lifting the battery showed a circular 'thing' in a hole in the tray, ferretting about underneath this is clearly the often mentioned sensor, complete the broken remains of two wires, not easy to see but it looks like they entered the loom somewhere behind the fuel filter, unfortunately this and the loader make it difficult to see, I'll have to go back when he is about and can bring it out into the daylight with some space to work.

I think someone tried and failed to fix this before my friend bought the tractor, the wire connected between 'S'on the alternator and 12v on the starter solenoid has to be an attempt to fool the alternator that was left in place - it would have been nice to approach the problem with the wiring in its original configuration !

Thanks for your help point me in the right direction Emiel, oh and your English is far better than my French :)
Best regards
Rick - Bogside on Bure


1958 Diesel E1A Mk2 s/n 1470165 - still in working clothes

Emiel
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Re: ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by Emiel »

My English is also better as my French. :beer:
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1948, E27N 1950, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

oehrick
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Re: ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by oehrick »

I'm sorry, I did mean Dutch but you know what the brain is like late at night :beer:
Best regards
Rick - Bogside on Bure


1958 Diesel E1A Mk2 s/n 1470165 - still in working clothes

oehrick
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Re: ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by oehrick »

I'm sorry, I did mean Dutch but you know what the brain is like late at night :beer:
Best regards
Rick - Bogside on Bure


1958 Diesel E1A Mk2 s/n 1470165 - still in working clothes

henk
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Re: ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by henk »

But the name is French :D :P
Kind regards, Henk

Fordson New Major February 1957 Mark I

oehrick
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Re: ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by oehrick »

Hmmmn, in England if something is said or written in a complicated manner it is known as 'Double Dutch'

For some reason my last post appears to have been written in 'Double English' by the appearance of it twice !!

Working all over Europe, as I was taught elementary French in school I was able to contribute in the conversation and found most would change to English, never determined if it was their gesture to my attempt to speak in their tongue or the reaction to hearing their lovely lasnguage mangled out of recognition :D

Working in the Netherlands was not so bad as I was generally accompanied by our European salesman who was Dutch, I learned to understand more of what was said than I was able to put into speech !

Tyen I had to 'babysit' a big development project for a company in Brugge (my favourite European city) where all the technical staff spoke Walloon and very little else, This had even our Dutchman struggling, fortunately in engineering an electrical or hydraulic circuit diagram or PLC ladder diagram is universal, the problems re appeared when we were taken for lunch or dinner, each meal was a voyage of discovery :buddies: :clap:
Best regards
Rick - Bogside on Bure


1958 Diesel E1A Mk2 s/n 1470165 - still in working clothes

oehrick
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Re: ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by oehrick »

Thanks for all your assistance Emiel from myself and Farmer David

Today's expedition with a variety of what 'might' be the wiring diagram concentrated on the broken wires from the battery sensor, with the aid of a bulb on a flexi and mirror on an old telescopic radio aerial I eventually found where they had led to, a bit of the loom with one of the battery - solenoid leads,it was hidden behind and under the fuel filter, that would have been awkward but this beast if fitted with a loader.

Managed to pull a little slack and pulled it under the filter to a highly accessible place :curse: between that and the loader bracket, tied with a wire I found wire ends at the end of the sheathing which had clearly been cut nearly flush also the outer sleeve had been scored with a knife ! someone has cut them back and installed that wire between S terminal on alternator and solenoid live !

Took several hours to cut back and excavate enough wire to strip and crimp a connector, there was a third wire so while it was out I crimped an extension wire on that just in case.

Hooking the sensor wires in and moving the brown wire from the auxilliary contact to the S contact,one all reconnected and tidied up ignition on gave an ignition light, start up on bottom revs left it alight but a few more revs saw it extinguish, by this time it was too dark so I will have to go back and just meter it out but it looks like we have probably won - thankfully hot wiring the new alternator has not killed it which probably means the old alternator works as well, thats the trouble with buying secondhand tractors at auction :scratchhead:

Thanks again for your help and moral support, decent folk inhabit the FTPages :beer:
Best regards
Rick - Bogside on Bure


1958 Diesel E1A Mk2 s/n 1470165 - still in working clothes

Emiel
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Re: ford 4600 charging problem / wiring diag

Post by Emiel »

Good to read it worked out. Tractors with loaders are mostly a joy to work on.

I work quite a lot in Belgium. In some areas the Flemish language is indeed almost impossible to understand for a Netherlands Dutch speaker. I can understand your colleague had difficulties with that in the Brugge area.
Best regards

Emiel

N 1937, E27N 1948, 8N 1948, E27N 1950, E1ADKN PP 1956, Dexta 1959, NH Clayson M103 1964

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