JOB DONE!! Can I use gear type pumpto pump Gasoline?

[Tmac]

I need to get 300 gals or so of old gas from an underground tank. Top is just under the
surface of ground level

The electric gas pump on the tank is dead.
Pump is dead motor still works. No the old
pump is not fixable

What I was wondering if I could use a gear
type pump to remove this fuel.

The motor for the old pump still runs. . I have
a nice tight all bronze gear pump, this
could be run from the existing motor and
electrics, which are wired explosion proof.
1/2 inch pipe in out. Stainless shaft. Pump lube from external grease cups on the pump. No ball bearings in the pump.

I only need to get this gas out into barrels.
Since I only need to do this one job it isnt
practical to buy a gas pump. Not only that
there may be water in it. Stuff is old.
No rental outfit within 60 miles has a
rental pump.

So fill me in Thanks

[JC]

Hi Tom
Glad to see that you're not buried under a snow drift or frozen to your Super Major

Weren't the old Blackmer and Fil-Rite hand-crank barrel pumps gear pumps? I can't remember for sure.

[Tmac]

Not frozen to much this year there has been little snow to plow. What did come was gone over night.
Up till I put this posting up from Christmas it was like middle of March here. But after all this is still Jan and all you have to do is wait 5 mins the weather will change! ) It is now at this moment raining pure ice. I dont look for anything like last year here as then complete houses were buried and a lot of buildings just caved in.

I dont know if those old pumps were gear or not. But if I remember right some of the old BIG aircraft engines had gear type fuel pumps. I know there are plenty of gear rotor pumps. But most of all those pumps had a positive pressure (gravity) feed. Iam needing to pull this gas up about 4 ft from the very bottom of the tank. I guess I will have to test this pump to make sure it works for what I want to do before installing in the old system.

[Mark]

Tom,
I know you already know this, but be careful and don't get blown into the wild blue yonder.
Good to hear from you again, I was also wondering to if you were covered up with snow like you were last year.

[Tmac]

Hi Mark
The worst gasoline episodes I have ever been around were 1. a fire at a gas pump 2. Fueling a P-38 lightening.

The gas station fire occured at a local (then Vancouver Wa) is when a guy pulled in and fueled his boat on a trailer. Me and another stopped in to pick up a 6 pack of beer. It was a HOT summer day about 10 years ago. My friend went in and got the beer. The guy with the boat had just paid for his gas. I was just starting to back out when I heard this big crash. I looked
back and seen that he had left the hose in the boat. When that guy left in a big hurry he pulled the pump off. He was draging the pump and it was on fire. That left nothing but a stub at the pump burning. The Guy at the store was a young guy like a high school kid. He run out with a 60lb co2 bottle. He was shooting the stuff all over and I could see that he didnt have a clue how to use it. My buddy want to just get out of there. I could of left it more than likely would have blown the whole tank. It was already belching, meaning it was sucking back. I have a lot of training in fighting fuel fires, both gasoline and Jet fuel from my aircraft fueling training. By this time the kid had wasted a lot of the ONLY fire extinguisher there. I run over and took it from him, with what was left I got the tank out. The pump was laying in the street still burning When I left. The fire truck had just arrived. My buddy with me was shaking like a leaf for an hour latter. He couldnt even open a beer.

Second actually was the first fueling a P-38 Lightening. This happened either in 69 or 70, I dont just quite remember.
I was at the Paine field airshow Evert Wa, where the 747 is built. That was a really big show too. I wasnt a scheduled flier there but was Invited as a back up if the contracted acts didnt make the show. Its was a 3 day weekend event. I didnt fly on Saturday line up. But was going in on Sunday.
So I attented all the pilot preshow and post show meetings. While I was at the post show meeting one of the guys with a really good show with a P-38, come over and asked me if I want some stick time in his p-38, like I was going to turn that down!! ). I would have settled for just getting to set in it.

He told me he needed to go to Portland Ore, which at 350 mph is a short hop. The fueling for 145 octane at Paine was out for the day. There was no 145 at Portland either. But another 100 miles to Eugene they had 145 fuel. But when we got there there was no one to fuel it for us. So the planes pilot called around and found that they had 8 barrels of the stuff at Sweethome. So we got there the guy brought the gas out in a truck in barrels. But only had a hand pump to pump the gas. Well that would have worked except that the pump hose was to short. So we ended up fueling 500 gallons of 145 oct by filling 5 gallon jerry cans and climbing a step ladder putting this stuff in with a funnel. Now you know pouring gas out a jerry can into a funnel isnt the easiest thing to do with out spilling any of it. So you have got to understand that 145 oct aircraft gas is what is called an aeromatic fuel. This stuff is closer to being Lacquer thinner or Keytone than gasoline, it dissolves any thing that is not hotfuel proof. Like the soles of our shoes. With the spillage on the wing it became so slick we were really having problems standing up. Then being in the middle of July on a hot day the fumes were all over the place. It wouldnt have taken much to send this plane to the boneyard then, us too. In the end we got it done and got back to Paine just before dark. Good flight too.

[JC]

A Detroit Diesel has a gear type fuel pump. We have one that pulls fuel from a tank that's 3' lower than the engine. You have to make sure the seal on the shaft is turned the right way, depending on whether you have positive or negative pressure on the pump.

Are you going to be able to use the gas after you pump it out, or are you just trying to empty the tank so you can take it out?

[Aussie Frank]

Hi Tmac,

There is no reason why a gear pump should not be able to be used. Many years ago I owned a Triumph 2500 PI that used a gear pump to provide the pressure for the injection system. You may have trouble priming it though, the Triumph was notorious for getting vapor locks in the pump when it was hot. A shot of heavy oil in the pump will sort the priming out if you don't mind a little contamination of the fuel. It might take a few goes but it is certainly worth a try if you have all the bits.

Regards, Frank.

P.S. I am glad I have not seen the gas station fires that you have. There was one not far from me a few years ago and when it happens it always makes you think about how dangerous fuel can be. It must be because we use it on such a regular basis that people can become complacent.

[Tmac]

Hi Auzzie Frank
My thoughts exactly.

I think I will put a foot valve on the suction pipe.
And a separate valve in a tee off on that pipe to prime it. I think that as long as the pump has a prime it will pump. While this is a small pump for
gasoline it is a big pump for a gear pump for gas. This pump has a 1/2 in pipe inlet and outlet. And your right I have all the bits to make it work. I think though I will give it a trial run before trying the tank. Then I can make any fixes needed or scrap the gear pump idea. I do have a roller pump
for a backup if the gear pump dont work. But it wont fit the current mounting installed at the tank so easy.

[JC]

You guys have got it figured out. I forgot to mention priming. We use a 12v. electric fuel pump, teed in the suction hose near the gear pump. Instead of a foot valve, we have a check valve near the top of the tank.

[Mark]

Hey TMAC,
That was an interesting story, but you never said how the P-38 flew.
Take care now with that gasoline.

[Tmac]

Hi Mark


For my opinion on the P-38 in those years you have to put it in perspective of what I was use to flying and what I came in with.

The plane I was flying may have been compared to a BIG RC Bi plane model on steroids.
It had an empty weight of 450 lbs, a wingspan of 16 ft on the top wing and 14 ft on the lower wing. With a gross take off weight of 650 lbs with all of 10 gallons of fuel. The wing at the thickest point of the air foil was about 6 inch. With a 100 hp engine this plane was no slouch. With my high speed prop on, I could hit 190 airspeed in level flight. Many of times had pushed it to 265 in a slight dive. When flying place to place the baggage consisted of maps, one camera one change of clothes and a tooth brush. Oh a screw driver and extra screws and a roll of duct tape. The baggage compartment was just a little bigger than the glovebox in my 82 Chev 10 pickup. The placement of the camera in that compartment would change the trim on the plane. It was like a coffin with wings and a engine. It was designed for speed and aerobatics period. This little plane had a rate of roll of 360* per second. The same model of plane as mine with a little bigger engine won every race in its class (sport biplane) at Reno for years, still holding many records.

Now the P-38 was considered a hi-altitude pursuit plane that burned a 100 gallons of fuel an hour. It would clime to 20,000 in about 5 minutes and in full battle configuration had a full range of machine guns and a 20 mm cannon. Its empty weight was around 12000 lbs and gross take off at about 22000 lbs. This is nearly the same as a DC3. Pulling it was about 2500 HP of nothing but pure brut force. When you closed the waste gates on the tubros set the boost up you knew you had some real engines there.

So my opinion of it was, it was like taking off going down the runway was like being launched in a AA Fuel dragger. Its climb was a steady pull. It would easily level out at a wonderful 350 kts. While these giants of engines were churning the huge props it actually run pretty quiet, considering there were no mufflers of any kind. To me it felt very heavy on the controls and wasn't easy to fly upside down. It didn't cut as well as I thought it would. Since it acrobatic capabilities seemed sluggish and heavy. This was an exciting plane to fly but to put on a very long airshow would be very tiring. Hot too considering most airshows go on during the hottest part of the summer. I got to say it was a real performer for what it was designed for, high attitude attack. The sluggish aerobatic performance and its weight gave me a whole lot more respect for the great precision aerobatics show the guy that owned and flew this plane put on.

[Mark]

TMAC,
My Dad was a fire control chief 3rd class on board the USS Indianapolis during WWII. He told of having a small bi plane on board ship to go scout out the area, and when it came back it would land in the water as close to the ship as possible, then they would take the crane and fish it out of the water. He said it was a very slow. He was in the Solomons, Mauriantis turkey shoot, Saipan, Okinawa, Attu, and five more battles that I can't remember without going and getting my journals out. His ship had 10 battle stars when got off in San Diago, Ca. for more training. It left port shortly there after on a secret mission to Hawaii to pick up one of the parts for the Atomic bomb, then to Guam and unload. On the way back to the Phillipines it was sunk by a Japanese submarine, losing over 800 sailors.

My Dad's brother was on board the USS Enterprise for the duration of the war. He was a mechanic on the planes, and anything else they needed during battle. They didn't have P-38's on board, but he told me of working on them at Wright Pat Air Force base in Fairborn, Ohio.
He had many tales to tell about the Grumman's, Corsairs, and Hellcats. He was in the Task Force when the Doolittle raid took off the Hornet with there B-25 Mitchells and bombed Tokyo. He said he could see them when they took off, everyone didn't know for sure if they could get off, but they didn't have any trouble. He said they flew off awful slow, but had plenty of deck when the plane lifted into the air.

Sounds like you ought to write down your flying time when you were in the service, if you have children or other relatives they probably would like to hold on to that journal.
Take care Tom with the gasoline.

[Tmac]

Hi Mark
The sinking of the USS Indianapolis was a terrible tragedy. I seen the story on TV a few years ago. But to refresh my memory I looked the story on the net. Wiki has a picture of the Bi-plane that was carried with it. But in the text it is incorrectly identified as a Vought OS2U Kingfisher, this plane was a mono-plane. From the picture shown I can not Identify just what that bipe was. It appears by the nose and engine cylinder cooling arrangement and prop spinner to be a Curtis Wright of some sort sporting the J-5 Wright Whirlwind, The basic same engine used by Charles Lindbergh.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USS_S ... CA-35).jpg

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USS_S ... CA-35).jpg
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Question: Can I pump gasoline with a gear pump?

And the answer is yes! I run a test with the pump a few days ago. I first used diesel. With the pump shaft chucked in my lathe, 10 ft hose in 10 ft out, 1 full diesel jerry can to 1 empty. Running at about 600rpm the pump will self prime with diesel. Took about 2 minutes for 5 gallon. Now for the gasoline same test setup but no such luck on the prime had to prime with gas, but once started just over 1 minute to pump 5 gallons. With enough pressure that I couldn't hold the stream off with my finger over the output. No leaks at the pump shaft seal either. No big explosion cause I am here to tell about it. Now the big question will it suck it up from 4 or 5 ft under ground. With a foot valve and a prime I think so.

[Mark]

Hey TMAC,
How did you come out on your gas project?
Hope you ain't in the hospital.

[Tmac]

Hey Mark Iam still with ya!! )

Gas Pumping Job Done! And Iam still here!!;)) Alright!!

Ok I pumped 400+- a few gallons, of good gasoline from an under ground tank. There was little water in the tank, about 3 gallons. This is not bad for what I estimate to have been a 600 gal tank. Most likely been there since the 1950s!

The pump was a bronze 2 gear type pump. Driven by a 1/3 hp electric motor, pump running at about 1200 RPM. 1/2 in pipe inlet and outlet. 25 ft outlet Hyd hose 10 ft sucker hose. No foot or check valve was used on the suction, just didn't need it. Pumping from a bottom of right at 6 ft under ground. Took about 15 min to fill a 55 gallon barrel.

I did use about 6 oz of diesel fuel to prime the pump to start.

[Mark]

I knew you could do it Tom, using a brass pump was very smart.

What are you going to do with the old tank, dig it up? Man! if there's gas fumes in that thing, and I know they are. You could still be sitting on the lower part of a crescent moon.
Good job Tom.

[Supertractorman]

When I used to run milk tankers, we used to get a lot of jobs pumping water in to fill old buried fuel tanks. I even had passers by ringing up to enquire why we were storing milk in garage forecourts !!, was tempted to say you could travel further on milk.