Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

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pbufton
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Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by pbufton »

This is off topic in my book, seeing as I couldnt see anywhere else suitable for it :)

Im just about to commence engine overhaul on my neighbours FE35. Engine is pretty well worn and addicted to easystart to get her going.

Back in the days of college where I studied Agricultural Engineering, during our engine overhaul project we used something like Engineers Blue (?) I remember it was blue, and im sure we used it to see how much wear was between the big end shells and the crank lobes. I.E. placed a dab onto the crank lobe, then fitted the big end, tightened, torqued then removed to see how much the 'blue' had spread - thus indicating how much wear was in the bearings.

I want to go through this engine properly, and wondering if anyone uses this 'blue' stuff with their rebuilds? I can only find Stuarts Engineers Blue on Ebay, im wondering if this is the stuff. Its a good 10 years since i was in college and I finally have a couple of engines to sort out, what with my dexta and this one :)

any input greatly appreciated :)

BearCreek Majors
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by BearCreek Majors »

over here its called Plastigage, Sold under the Sealed Power brand. the .001-.003 is a part number SPG-1

Pat

Brian
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by Brian »

Plastigauge is what you want, engineers blue is more for machined parts and when you are grinding in valves. Think I would mic. the crank and see if it was round and within the required limits. Re-ground crank and new bearings will not need checking.
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pbufton
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by pbufton »

Thanks for the help.

Ive said to neighbour about possibly having the crank reground depending on wear- how do they go about this though? Do they build it up and grind it back to standard size or take a though off and me fit a slightly bigger bearing?

Next step to find out who does that sort of thing around here

Jerry Coles
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by Jerry Coles »

An engine over haul company will usually grind the crank journals down to the next 5 thou and usually supply shells for Mains and Big ends of the appropriate oversize (ie +5thou).
Where are you in mid wales?
I guess you'll have to go to Swansea or Brecon.
The other alternative is to buy a new short engine and reattach all the other bits off your old block (head, pumps, sump, flywheel etc).
Cheers
Jerry
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Bensdexta
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by Bensdexta »

I have a favourable report of Aeron Engine Services, Lampeter.

But not used them myself.
Bensdexta - 1961 working for a living!

pbufton
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by pbufton »

Jerry, im only 20minutes from brecon, i wasnt aware of anywhere there that did engine stuff?

I had Phoenix Engine Services in Hereford in mind for skinming the head and fitting new valve guides..used them in the past and their prices are very reasonable.

Jerry Coles
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by Jerry Coles »

I wasn't sure where you lived in mid-wales.
I have friends near Lampeter and also near Sennybridge and Swansea.
I've just Googled "engine reconditioning Brecon" and its returned several near Brecon (Bargoed?) and Swansea and Hereford.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Jerry
Jerry Coles
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pbufton
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by pbufton »

Going to look into engine services just as soon as I get the crank out.

Finally made some ground today getting the head off, and spilt the tractor at the bellhousing.

Removed the timing gear cover to reveal gearing which is nothing like that described in Agrilines' Massey Ferguson 4 cylinder gas & diesel repair manual...there is 1 photo and 1 diagram of timing gears which is nothing like what im looking at.

Done some research on the net and the tractor has the correct 23c engine fitted. Yet unless im missing something, it doesnt seem to be listed in this book which is bloody stupid.

Im now wondering whether any of the torque specifications/valve clearances listed are relevant to the 23c? Expensive firelighters Ive bought at £30! Not happy.

pics to follow if i can figure it out

Jerry Coles
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by Jerry Coles »

Googled "23c engine" and then opened up the 'images' link.
Not many people are aware that whenever you google something and you see images/picture (Usually 4-6) if you then click on the underline you get LOADS!!
See here https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=23c+e ... 19&bih=490. Then by clicking on a likely image you get to go to the relevant website - most useful.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Jerry
Jerry Coles
Camerton, Bath, UK
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pbufton
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by pbufton »

Jerry,

Been doing just that all evening. Just need for find a repair manual for the 23c now which has the relevant data. Shame Haynes don't do one!

Managed to find a rough guide on setting up timing anyway. Starting to wonder whether a bepco kit would be better for this seeing as its not a good starter in general....roughly £100 more than the agriline one but I want to fit a kit which will last. Seen a few good reports of the bepco kit in the 23c just by doing a quick search

super6954
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by super6954 »

Bensdexta wrote:I have a favourable report of Aeron Engine Services, Lampeter.

But not used them myself.
Wow those guys have been in business a long time :) . used them for work on our inter 1046 motor, and a few other jobs, back in the good old days of living in Aberporth, from 1988 to 2000 before coming to Canada. the local Vapormatic parts and tractor dealer used them to :) .
Regards Robert
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Nevis
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by Nevis »

Check out vintagetractorengineer.com - they sell a DVD which takes you through the complete rebuild of a 23c engine.

Gavin
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by Gavin »

SVS in Cardiff did a good job for me very quickly and a good price too. Do NOT use Brian North of Cardiff
Fordson Super Dexta, Ford 4610, and Ford 3000

pbufton
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by pbufton »

Right, after setting the fuel injection timing for the second time (was 180 degrees out first time, set pump to C, locked the flywheel at 16 degrees before tdc and spun the pump over to G) And engine starts superbly with a little heat :clap:

The only issue is, it will run for 20 seconds with quite a bit fo smoke, then instantly stop. If I turn over on the key there is barely any smoke. if I pressurise the tank and keep priming, engine will produce smoke again, fire and run for about 20 seconds again and then stop! Its obviously fuel issues, Ive changed the fuel filter in the bowl and cleaned it all out, im slightly at a loss now.

Before rebuild, engine would always once started, run all day. So whats the issue here?

Dandy Dave
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by Dandy Dave »

I know that mine will smoke for a bit after using the excessive fuel button to start. I think it is normal. Dandy Dave!
Have a Fordsonful day Folks!

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pbufton
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by pbufton »

This ferguson doesn't have excess fuel button. Could be the diesel in the manifold going through though. Seen a vid on youtube of a rebuilt one which seems to smoke and sound just like mine on cold startup so that gives me some confidence.

Looking at another vid of bleeding the fuel system, im wondering whether theres still a pocket of air in the pump that needs bleeding out. Seeing that and reading comments of how the 23c was a total #### to bleed makes me think i didnt bleed the system properly......

pbufton
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by pbufton »

For anyone interested, this week ive been putting the hours in after work in an effort to get this 23c ferguson mobile this weekend.

I split the tractor for the 2nd time at the bellhousing, as a big part of me wanted to check the fuel injection timing was set correctly to cam and tbd timing. Pleasantly, it was all spot on. tractor then bolted back together. Removed the sediment bowl and cleaned it all out (Was absolutely full of gunge and dirt) Fitted new fuel tank filter.

Got rid of the nearly full tank of old grubby fuel and filled with some lovely red fresh stuff :) Bled the system, removed the little bleed screw on the pump, primed.

Couple of attempts at starting later and the fuel Is bled, tractor runs, horrendously smokey. fill up with water and hope I fitted the thermostat the correct way round.

Ran it for a while and seems to be throwing the water out? Yet once thermostat opens, its fine? And I seem to have a leak around the HG seal on both sides. when almost up to temp for the thermostat to open, producing minute bubbles for a quarter of the way across the block-head on the N/S, and half of the block-head seal on the other side. to the point where I seem to be losing a bit of coolant :scratchhead: Head was skimmed and had a fresh HG fitted.

Once the engine was warm, this leak seemed to stop. yet still producing the minute bubbles across the seam.

Shed was by now full of smoke, the white/blue smoke not letting up at all, at any rpm. Cue me scratching my head lots. Had a wee fiddle with the pump while it was running, and moved it slightly and it ran smooth as silk, and smoke instantly cleared :D

Any ideas on why im getting the bubbling? and which way around the thermostat should be sat in the housing? As it seems to happily fit both ways around.

Pavel
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by Pavel »

The bellows, or wax-stat, should sit facing the direction of a heat source, i.e the cylinder head. Bubbles in the coolant indicate cylinder exhaust gas leaks. It is possible the h/gasket is under or over torqued. Even though you have re-faced the head it is also possible the deck of the cylinder block is warped.

Pavel

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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by Dandy Dave »

Yup. Sounds like you have a faulty gasket or crack somewhere. My old Massey 30D will smoke for a bit when I first start it, but it clears up as it warms up. In weather down to 0 C,or 32 F and above it will start just turning it over. Below, and just a small shot of either and it fires right off. That Perkins is one of the best starting Diesels I have ever seen. Dandy Dave!
Have a Fordsonful day Folks!

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pbufton
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by pbufton »

I dont have a bellows type thermostat, when i stripped down it was missing any type of thermostat. The one ive got is a 'standard' modern one. I just have no idea if thres preference to the way in which its fitted in the housing.

and the bubbking around the hg now seems to have gone. Ran for a second time until up to temp and thermostat opens, and not a visible leak anywhere :)

pbufton
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by pbufton »

Anyone?

The HG is leaking badly now. Is this possibly crap Agriline quality? Had the head skimmed but not the block, I cant see that the block is warped. WHat decent makes do a HG for the 23c?

Tomorrow is going to consist of mostly stripping the head back off this tractor :curse:

Mark
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by Mark »

When you get it off, put a good straight edge on your block and see if it is warped. It most likely is your agriline gasket. I use Fell pro on all my engines, they work every time.
What all did they do to your head? You may have some bad valve seals with the kit you bought.
Did you have a good torque wrench, I found out this past year that mine wasn't torquing properly, and had to have it put to sleep. Don't know if any of this will help you. :|
See ya
Mark

When all else fails, get a bigger hammer

pbufton
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by pbufton »

Mark wrote:When you get it off, put a good straight edge on your block and see if it is warped. It most likely is your agriline gasket. I use Fell pro on all my engines, they work every time.
What all did they do to your head? You may have some bad valve seals with the kit you bought.
Did you have a good torque wrench, I found out this past year that mine wasn't torquing properly, and had to have it put to sleep. Don't know if any of this will help you. :|
Stripped just yesterday, and I think its the gasket. I doesn't centre around the liners properly, its tight on the offside and barely creating a seal on the other side. Im wondering would this slightly gap in sealing cause the coolant to pressure out. Was consistent on every liner. And the stud holes do not match correctly down the centre on the block...this has created a burr on about 5 of the holes on the gasket.

Slipped the old gasket on and everything lines up as it should, perfectly. Liners in the centre of where they should sit, and all studs sit in centre of their gasket holes.

Is it possible to reuse the old HG? It hasn't blown anywhere. Otherwise who in the UK does a HG with a good reputation? Will look at Fell pro but I see you're in Kentucky

thanks

Mark
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Re: Engine overhaul commences. BUT....

Post by Mark »

Your head gasket is bad, bad, bad. If it won't line up to the original gasket then it's not the right one or it's probably made in China, throw it in the trash.

I wouldn't reuse your old head gasket either, I'm sure someone on here from UK can direct you in the right way to get one that will work. You have to watch all the "junk" you buy on the internet especially gaskets.
Hope this helps. :|
Last edited by Mark on Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
See ya
Mark

When all else fails, get a bigger hammer

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