Fordson Power Major Pump Timeing?

[Jackrabbit]

I just replaced the pump on my Fordson Power Major with one that a guy gave me. They are both Simms pumps, but the one that I just installed has a wider, and larger fiber than the old one. The timeing mark on the old one was a notch on the collet or hub closest to the pump and time marker. On this one the timeing marker goes over the top of this same collet or hub, a little ways, and I can not see any marks on the other collet or hub. My question is> is the timeing mark on the collet or hub, the same on all pumps? I took a picture of it, but can not Attach it to this post. A-Big-Thanks in advance.

[Brian]

On Major tractors there are only two positions for timing marks on the pump. They are here:



or here, over the top of the pump coupling on the Minimec Pump:



I would suspect you may have a pump from a truck or other application, you could change the drive coupling for the one off your old pump or accurately measure it and cut another mark into your new coupling. Make sure that the clamp bolt is as shown in the first picture which will ensure you are on No.1 cylinder. The picture of The Minimec pump shows the engine on No 4 cylinder.

[Jackrabbit]

Thanks Brian. You are a Great helper.

[super6954]

Hi Brian
It would seem from what Jackrabbit is saying that he may have the super major silent coupling fitted . For some reason all the power majors and 1 ordinary major I have bought this side of the atlantic have had them fitted. I never saw one in all my years in England only on the supers.
I'm kinda wondering if it was an export option I don't no if that coupling was around before the supers in Trucks, or did the regular coupling fail here more often for climate reasons or something and they got replaced in there farming days
Regards Robert

[Brian]

I wondered that Robert but the "Silent" ones do not use a fibre disc as Jack mentioned.

The ones that were used here in lorries and industrial applications were rubber cushioned. Some did find their way onto Supers but were never offered as an option for the home market. Nuffield did use them on the later 4/60 and 10/60 as standard.

[super6954]

Hi Brian
Thanks for the reply Maybe they just got changed in service then I dont have any guys of your professional experience from fordson dealers around here to ask about it .
On the silent ones I have here The rubber has gone so hard with age/ oil contamination it looks and feels like the fibre type Material when you get them apart. I guess we won't know for sure what jack has unless he can give us a description compared to your picture or figures out posting a picture of what he has.
Regards Robert

[Jackrabbit]

Thanks Brian and Super6954> Like Super6954 said, that it might be rubber that has been in it for awhile and harden like fiber would feel like. It is real thick, made into one piece. I have a very good picture of it, but can not figure how to Attach it to this memo. If you let me know how to Attach it, I will and that way you will get a better understanding of what I have. Brian> whith the diagram on lineing up the timeing marks on the pump, you posted, do I still have to line the fly wheel on 23 first and then line the pump timeing marks? A-Big-Thanks.

[Gman]

Hello jackrabbit and also to all others. Jackrabbit you have found the place for fordson info. My power major would still be sitting if not for this site. I have not posted in some time but wanted to say hello to all and see if I can help on the picture. It took me several tries and help from here to get my pictures up but once you learn it is easy. I use imageshack for my pics. You can copy from there and paste here:[IMGURL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/tractor1.jpg/]URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/524/tractor4.jpg/][/URL]
This is my power major, in imageshack you pull up the picture you want to send, under thumbnail size you highlight the url for forums and right click, then copy. You then go to here and right click in your post and then paste. The picture does not show then just the url info. I always then preview my post to make sure the picture is showing up. I'm in the us and my power major has the fiber block at the pump and the major I bought for parts also had the fiber block. Good luck to all on their projects.

[Brian]

Yes, you must be on 23 degrees on the flywheel and the pump clamp bolt in the position shown.

The pump drive turns at half engine speed so that the marks on the flywheel appear twice for every revolution of the pump drive. If you do not line up the 23 degrees on No 1 cylinder you will not see the marks as they will be block side of the coupling. That is why the clamp bolt position is important, it tells you the engine is on No 1 and not on No 4.

Once you are sure of the 23 degrees and the engine on No 1, the timing marks on the pump should line up. Unlike a petrol engine, these marks should always be lined up dead on, not slightly above or below. slacken the claw bolts and move the coupling to bring the marks into line.

[Jackrabbit]

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/52/1001919m.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/401/1001918n.jpg/


Thanks Brian. That is what I thaught, but wanted to make shure, Thanks Gman. I'am going to try and upload a couple of pictures. This sight is Great. I have enjoyed reading a lot of the posts. Good information. A-Big-Thanks.

[Jackrabbit]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Uploaded with ImageShack.us



I will try one more time. This time I finally did it right. Thanks Gman for stepping me through this.

[Brian]

Robert was right! That is a "Silent" coupling and the insert is hard rubber not fibre. It is possible that there will be no timing mark on it.

The only way to set the timing will be by "Spill Cut-Off" which is not complicated but a bit more difficult.

Does the tractor run? Or is it a non-starter after having a pump change?

[Jackrabbit]

Brian> I had a leak on the Head Gasket on the far back cylinder. I had the Head completely done over. I did not touch the original pump that was on it. When I started it up, it ran, but real rich. There was diesel smoke billowing from it. I pulled the shut-off cable, and nothing happened. I had to shut the fuel off at the tank, to make it shut-off. Good thing it worked. I did a search on the internet, and found out that the governor, diaphragm was stuck. I did the test by takeing the two governor pipes loose, and check for vacuum. There was none. If I tapped on the outside of the governor houseing, it would release, and I would have vacuum. Never had any trouble befor with it. I had this other pump, that a guy gave me. The vacuum worked fine, so I installed it. The first time I tried to start it, I had diesel smoke comeing from the exhaust, but it would not fire. I adjusted it a little more, and now I get nothing. I noticed that there is, what looks like a mark on the hub, closest to the governor, so I measured the same distance on the other hub, and chiseled a mark on it. Now I can see to line it up with the timeing marker. Is there any markings on the back side of the hub, to varify that it is a timeing mark? I'am going to try this. Could you let me know the other way to time it? A-Big-Thanks.

[JC]

Hi Jackrabbit,
After reading your last post, it sounds like there's not much wrong with your old pump.
If you get vacuum at the governor housing when you tap on the pump, the control rod (rack) is sticking.
Remove the side cover. Make sure its very clean first, a little dirt inside can do a lot of damage. Lube the rack with ATF or penetrating oil and move it back and forth by hand until the governor spring can push it back by itself. Put the cover back on and try the vacuum test again.
If it works, put it back on and time it like it shows in Brian's pictures.

If the old pump still doesn't work, you could take the coupler and pointer off of it and put it on your "new" one, then you will have timing marks again.

Did you remember to bleed the new pump after you put it on?

[Brian]

From the position of your clamp bolt you might not be on No 1 cylinder, you may also have fitted the new pump 180 degrees out, its easily done. Think I would take the pump off again and rotate the coupling 180 degrees and try again. You could also, as JC says, refit your coupling from the old pump.

Try the 180 degrees first, we have all made that mistake at one time or another.

In fact you may be able to get that pump wrong in many places with all the lobes on the coupling. Get the clamp bolt into the position in the first picture, and at 23 degrees. Then take the plate off the side of the pump and turn the pump until the plunger feeding No 1 is at or near the top of its travel, then put the pump back on.

[Gman]

Hi Jack, I had a stuck rack in my pump, there is a post on here. Once I fixed it I found now I can tell if the rack is stuck by moving the fuel control lever at the pump by hand and you can feel the vacumn spring on the other end of the rack if it is not stuck. I was afraid of getting dirt in my pump which will destory it, therefore I fixed mine by taking the fuel control lever off, four screws, and just squirted some atf into the end on the rack. A little movement by hand and it was free. Also while I had the fuel control lever off was able to get the cold fuel button cleaned up and working properly. I'm not sure if the post on this is still there. Anyway good luck and if you listen to these guys on here you will be getting the best advice out there.
Gman

[Jackrabbit]

Thanks guys. I cleaned my old pump on the outside, then took the side cover off. Boy was I surprised. There was all kinds of brown gunk, all over in the inside and the inside of the cover. What can I use to clean this up? Should I use diesel fuel? Surprised that it was working before. I had it parked inside my heated shop, since I worked on it, so it has not been outside until now. Where do you put oil in the pump? A-Big-Thanks. Everybody is a big help and I appreciate it.

[Brian]

Diesel is fine. There is no oil in the pump it is lubricated by diesel. If you are going to store it however, put about 1/4 pt of engine oil into the pump before putting the side plate on. Keep everything very, very clean>

[Jackrabbit]

I gave up on my old pump and took the pump that was given to me, to a guy that works on pumps. He went completely over it, and timed it for me. $404.00 worth. I put the mark on the fly wheel on 23 degrees, but the notches on the fiber part of pump drive will not line up, so I turned the fly wheel completely over again, to 23 degrees, and it still will not line up. I have turned it many times, and it is the same. I called the guy and he said that the pump was on the right timeing and I had to have the fly wheel on 23 degrees or it would not run. He said that the timeing gear might have jumped a cog or two. He said that I had to move the timeing gear, so that every thing would line up. He did not know to much about Fordson Power Majors. He said that there might be a smaller cover. I had the timeing gear cover off, to replace the front seal, but did not touch any thing else. Is there any way to make adjustments to the timeing gear (that runs the pump drive) without takeing the timeing gear cover off again? I have a manuaul, and I could not find any thing in there on it. I had to remove the front of the tractor, to replace the front seal. A-Big-Thanks in advance.

[Nick]

Hi all, i have the same coupling as above (silent coupling), on a minimec pump on the super major engine ive got here. I managed to time it up fairly easily in the end, on the coupling there is an 'S' printed and no other mark. So i lined it up with this when it was on 23 degrees, although it does take a while to start like this, so whether ive got it slightly out, im not really sure how to tell! Has your coupling got any marks at all?

[Brian]

There is no need to adjust the timing gears, your mechanic is talking rubbish. The gears can only be assembled in the wrong place and you say you have not had them off. They cannot "jump a tooth", if they did they would break as they are steel. There are no sliding bolts as on the later Ford tractors.

You cannot "time" the pump off the engine. The only adjustments on the pump are delivery amounts of fuel which have to be calibrated and measured on a special machine and set to the Ford specification.

The pump times up at 23 degrees on No 1. Number 1 is when the clamp bolt is below the shaft as shown in the picture I posted. If you cannot get her to start on 23 at this position, slacken the adjusters on the coupling and move it a little at a time until she starts and runs.

"S" on the coupling is the Pump Spill cut off which is not quite the same as BTDC but is near enough to just tweak and get right.

[Jackrabbit]

Thanks Brian. I'am glad to hear that I do not have to monkey with the timeing gears. The guy said that he did not know much about Fordson Power Majors. I think what I'am going to do is> take the injectors out and have him check them out or replace them. Then I will try again to time it. A-Big-Thanks.

[Denis]

Hello,

I hope you don't mind me adding my question to this post but it is relevent.

My Fordson Major was not starting easily and also it wouldn't idle with the accelerator on minimum setting, engine would just stop.

Having read the various posts here I set about trying to check timing. I found that the clamp bolt was not tight enough and therefore there was a small rotational movement round the shaft.

How do I ensure it is clamped in correct place on the shaft ?

Thanks, in advance for your help

Denis

[Brian]

The pump drives are keyed onto the shafts so you cannot get them wrong. The problems come when you couple the pump to the engine without making sure it is on Number 1 cylinder. The timing marks on the engine line up on both Number 1 and Number 4 so you can get the pump fitted 180 degrees out.

[Denis]

So that is why the bits don't rotate completely round the shaft, only a few degrees. I guess the keys have worn, thereby allowing a slight movement. How do I fit a new key ? Where can I get a new key ?

When I first rotated fly wheel the mark on pump coupling appeared to line up with TDC, not 23 degrees before.

Thanks for your help