Hydraulic wont work

[nightmare]

Hello Fordson Experts

The three point hitch wont Work on a Fordson Supermajor I am restoring.
The Things I have done so far:
-Cleaned out gunk from the bottom of the rear end- put on fresh oil
-Cleaned out both filters in the rear end
-All handles, the valve and the position regulator on the top cover moves fine and feels allright
-Pto is running
-Pump looks fine inside, runs with no noise, no slack, no damage on gears
-Tried two different tops and none of them will move the hitch shoulders. (One of the top covers had been sitting outside for 14 years. The other one seems very healthy)
-I had it running with the top cover placed but not tightened down. There was oil leaking from the front right corner where the pump line meets the top-cover and valve. Makes me think that I have oil flow from the pump.


What shall I take apart to fix her ? .
Any suggestions will be highly apreciated

Best regards
Max Madsen, Denmark

[Brian]

Hi Max, welcome to the board.

Two things that will give you your problem are the flow control in the Auxiliary Service Chest on the top of your lift is stuck. An easy way to test this is to get another unit that you know works and swap it over.



The other area is the unload valve. You will carefully have to withdraw the plug and then push the valve from the rear. Polish with metal polish, replace the "O" ring with only a genuine Ford one and refit. If you have a metal "O" ring then clean it and carefully refit it. I use two small screwdrivers to ease it back into the bore.



Drawing the plug, sorry it is blurred.



Unload valve with metal "O" ring.

[nightmare]

Hi Brian

Thank you very much for your answer and Pictures. They are a great help.
The unload valve moves very smoothly from side to side in its housing, when i removed its plug so I guess its ok. But i will put on a new O-ring like you suggest.
Had the hydraulic service -thing off and the flow control valve out. It moves very nice too and spring is intact.
Once new O-rings are fitted, I will put the top back on and se what she does

[nightmare]

Now I have put the service chest on Again with new seals, and both the unload valve and flow control valve moves smoothly. New O-rings on the two vertical pipes and put the top back on. Still no reaction on the lifting arms at all no matter how i move the handles. Pto runs
Say the lifting cylinder was stuck, wouldt it then be possible to hear some sort of hydraulic noise if it was trying to move it ?
Any suggestions will be highly apreciated. Oil is new, the bottom and filters are clean.

regards Max

[Brian]

From what you have done you have overhauled the lift top cover. Have you checked the pump? The oil from the pump goes through the pipe into the top cover and up into the ASC. You should be able to pull the ASC knob out and "dead head" the pump whcich should allow you to here the engine note change and the lift start "singing". If you get nothing it means that you are not getting pressured oil from the pump or your Pressure Relief Valve is faulty.

Have you tested the system with a pressure gauge?

If not, the easy way to do it is to remove the ASC, operate the starter with the stop pulled and hold your thumb over the pressure port. The pressure shoug easily lift your thumb, if it does not you have pump problems.

Back to basics, have you got your PTO in gear?
When you checked the pump was the key OK in the tapered shaft and pump drive gear?
Did you put the pumping elements back the right way round, Wide to the intake, narrow to the pressure side?
Were the pump "O" rings in good condition? I have seen a new and a reconditioned pump blow an "O" ring as the engine started but this was due to a jammed PR Valve.

[nightmare]

Hello Again, and once Again thank you Brian for usefull advice. I really apreciate it.

I had my thumb on the pressure pipe, and had oil pressure when turning the starter that i could not hold back. Assuming pump and feed pipes must be allright then.
Took out the pressure relieve valve, it moved smoothly like the other valves. Replaced the O-ring.
Started it and moved the ASC knob from side to side. Still no movement on the lifting shoulders and no drop in engine rpm. No hydraulic sound either. Tryed the handles in every position but no luck.

[Brian]

You really do have a mystery. If you are getting pressure, however low, I would have expected some movement or noise. You seem to have checked everything and even tried another lift.



As you can see from the diagram of flow, you have all the valves in the circuit in use when you try to lift. The PR Valve, flow control valve, check valve, unload valve and control valve. Either one of these has a problem or you have a massive oil leak through either an "O" ring or a split pressure pipe. Did you try blowing air through the pressure pipe with your finger over the end? I have had the pipes split or the brazing leak on the joint where the pipe fits in the rear axle housing.

The fact that you have tried another lift without any change in your symptoms keeps bringing my thoughts back to the pump or pressure pipe. The only tractor I have come across which showed similar symptoms to yours was a brand new NP Super which I was PDI-ing. It would not lift at all so I took the lift off and put it on our tester where it worked perfectly. I put it back on the tractor, started up and the lift arms came up but after I lowered them it would not lift again. Once again the lift came off, onto the tester, worked perfectly. I then put my hand in the oil and checked around the pump pedestal only to find that the casting had no intake holes for oil to the base of the pump through the filter. Enough oil got into the housing when I removed the pump to allow the lift to work once when I had it all back together but not a second time. Any chance you have left a rag inside blocking or restricting the intake ports?

Where in the world are you?

[SkidRoe]

Looks like he is from Denmark. Just reading all of this, I have one question: did it work before you started your restoration?

[nightmare]

Thank you for help and advice. Because of you I believe that its gonna roll at some point and be ready to do some light duty on my farm for pleasure.
NO the lift did not Work before I took it apart, in that case I would gladly have moved to the paint-part of my restoration and would not had started messing with it. From what you say, I start to suspect the pump too... even though it felt like a good pressure in the thumb when turning the starter.
Tomorrow I will once Again remove the top and examine the pressure pipe from the pump.
Today I had the pressure relieve valve out, cleaned it up, new O-ring but no luck. Still no sound from the hydraulic cirkuit at all

[nightmare]

By the way, here she is, before starting the restoration. Yep a kind of special Fordson. A former County that somebody gave a normal frontaxle and a Supermajor rearend. Truly one of a kind -and my puller sitting in front of it

[URL=http://s1108.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

[SkidRoe]

That is quite a mix of parts and a real beast. A name comes to mind: Fordenstien

Cheers - SR

[Brian]

That looks like a County Super 6 that someone has taken the front axle off. At least it is a County nose cone.

[BearCreek Majors]

Nice collection!
I'd give a left nut for that bonnet to put on my Super Six, they are pretty much nonexistent over here in the US.
I'm thinking Brian's got you going in the rite direction, I'd put a pressure gauge in the pressure port to see what you have. even the cheap IT manuals give a pretty good explanation on doing this.

You gota post some pics of both tractors!! What are you running for a engine in the puller?

Pat

[nightmare]

I agree, its a beast, but once done, I think it will be a very nice and rare type of beast You have to decide at that point.
Decided to pull the entire bottom filter out and found that the upper siewe was totally gunked since I only cleaned the Down side. Do you think it will restrict the flow enoug for hydraulic not to Work at all ?
Decided to order a new exhaust filter since it fell apart too, and look forward to put it back together Again
Had both air and Water in the pressure pipe to check for leaks, but it is not leaking, and the pump had its seals and so on.

Yea, Pat, the bonnet and front, weight etc. might be the most exiting thing about that tractor at this point
-and the engine in the puller is a Ford 365 from a Ford Cargo truck, spiced up with turbo, ic, bigger injectors, fast govenor, flowed head, twin clutch and a lot of safety equipment to be legal. And no hydraulics left to cause troubles [URL=http://s1108.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
[URL=http://s1108.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]

[SkidRoe]

That is a pretty gunked up screen, got to have an affect on performance. Kinda makes you wonder what the inside of the pump looks like...

When I call your machine a beast, I mean it in the nicest possible way. Love those big front tires, are those 10.00-16's?

Your pulling tractor is a very sweet looking unit. Well done!

Cheers - SR

[BearCreek Majors]

You got two nice tractors there!
How are you coming along with the lift problem? I doubt that the screen is the cause, as nasty as it is it would probably just cause the hydraulics to be slow, unless it was completely plugged tight.

Pat

[nightmare]

Thank you for your concern. I am still awaiting the new exhaust filter and look forward to put it together Again. Still searching for a complete rearend with working hydraulics to make a swap if one should show up for a fair Price. Like you, I doubt that the problem is the dirty screen too...
Yep Skidroe, the wide front tires are 10 x 16 but when I got the Price for new ones that was three times 7,5 x 16 i choosed the small ones. But i do keep the original cast extra weights on the inside

[BearCreek Majors]

If it still has the original transmission The gears were hardened from County, it should have a tag on the blank cover where the flat belt pulley goes, I don't remember for sure if the gears in the rearend were altered as well.

Pat

[nightmare]

Not sure if the transmission is the original. There are no signs of a place on the cover plate for the pulley.
Have the unload valve out now. It seems to slide very nice in the housing and has no visible damage. The O ring probably is not fresh any more tough. Just a bit concened taking it off before I have a new one in stock. It was not in the O-ring kit i bought from agriline and a friend of mine suggest to replace it with a metal type.
Does it look lige this valve could have caused troubles ? [URL=http://s1108.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
regards Max

[Brian]

You must use the C/NH "O" ring, no other will do.

You cannot put a metal ring on that valve unless you replace it with a new valve machined for the ring.

You can replace it without an "O" ring fitted which works OK. It was what we used to do, with Fords blessing, when we got ones that would continually stick. This was before they changed the "O" ring material.

Your valve does not look too bad, just polish the stem with metal polish, no form of abrasive other then that should be used.

[nightmare]

WOW now its working The last operation was:

Cleaning the bottom of the sieve under the pump
Replace exhaust filter
Polish unload valve and remove O-ring
Polish flow control valve

On the flow control valve there were some very small scratches. It moved fine but I guess the problem was there since the unload valve seemed to move very nice. Now everything is working and I know a lot more about the hydraulics.


Thank you very much gyes for your help and advice.

My testrun showed some leakage and there is a clicking noice in the right brake, so after fixing that I hope to move to the paint job

Regards Max

[BearCreek Majors]

Pat

[SkidRoe]

Yay!! Great Job!!

[^Space^]

I am having a problem pretty much the same with mine. I changed the oil 2 times cleaned the filter screen changed the return filter cleaned the top valves that I have but still the lift does not work. I cleaned and removed the pump gears look good and makes pressure at the top valve I have. but not at the lift. guess i must clean all the unloading valve and stuff inside. the valve I have does not look like the ones seen in the books it has two places for handles on the rear near the seat. The valve says WoosterB-WDivision on it. If I had enough computer smarts I would send a pic.
Cam anyone give any,ore advice on this type valve. I am getting pressure to it as I say just not to the lift.
Any help would be greatly appreciated

[^Space^]

Thanks for all the pictures and help this was a life saver. I had taken the top off the rear axle so many times that I could do it in my sleep, and then I made a pull hammer out of a bolt welded on a piece of 3/8 shafting and used a socket for the weight and got the plug out of the Bypass valve and went to the Ford New Holland dealer and got the replacement O ring and used car rubbing compound to roll the metal parts with and the cylinder of the valve and put it all back together and it works well now.

I bought new spindles, bushings and bearings for the front end and got them installed. rebuilt the steering gearbox with 3/8 sling shot balls and fixed that problem. steering is a bit tight but working well.
Next to re do the fuel system and add the water seperator and new filters and replace the generator with a GM 1 wire a new switch and I will be plowing with the old gal.

Thanks again ^Space^
I also own a Harry Ferguson To 20 a To 35 gas and a Massey Ferguson 50 E with loader.