Timing cover AND other questions. 1952 Gas Major

[52GasMajor]

Removing bottom pulley and timing cover WITHOUT removing the "tombstone" on a 1952 Fordson Major Gasoline...

Possible or not?

Thanks!

[Billy26F5]

Totally possible. You'll need a puller to pull the pulley off. The manuals are normally written with a full overhaul in mind, which requires a lot more work than what I assume is replacing the front crank seal. Be careful with the seal you get, the early ones are different. When the narrow pulleys came in, the pulley hub was increased from 2 1/2" to 2 5/8". The seals have an ID of 2.44" and 2.56". Part numbers are E1ADKN-6362 and 510E-6362. E1ADKN-6362B fits the later parts, it was replaced when the minimec was introduced. The older seals were leather and required soaking in oil, current rubber types don't. Not sure if the early one is available new.
Sandy

[mathias1]

there are 3 threaded holes in the pulley. uses these to remote the a pulley like this: https://www.aldee.nl/product/midlock-po ... h0OmTaIjIU
Or make something similar using a thick plate and welding on a nut in the middle

[52GasMajor]

Thank you both.

Tractor is new to me. Tractor #1229010 both on starter flange and firewall plate, June 1952.

Was told by PO that it was "fully restored" 10 years ago. I was told that when the PO purchased it, it had a bent/broken/dropped valve (can't remember which it was). He had the tractor in to a shop and had the head work done and the valve(s) replaced. I do not know much else about its history unfortunately.

PICTURES https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... j7q9DKHxtM

The motor seems to run very smoothly (has a slight misfire when cold that quickly goes away and it takes some cranking to get it to fire, suspect lift pump/carb), and there are no detectable grinding or knocking sounds other than a suspected throw-out bearing for the clutch...however it does have the dreaded low oil pressure... Will be working on investigating that.

It does NOT have the original/correct distributor on it. From what I have read, the distributor that is on it now, a Lucas 41370 D (from a 1972 MG car), was supposed to be an alternative to the original...but needed something changed/adjusted on the vacuum advance to make it "correct". I have no idea what, if any, adjustments were made to the distributor.

I would like to replace the crank seal, however, I would also like to have a general look at the timing gears while I am in there (check for excessive wear, broken teeth, loose screws, etc), as well as the pressure relief valve for the oil pump.

The tractor is very complete, minus the toolbox and headlights, and seems to be in very good shape for its age.

It does have a few other issues, as I am sure you will all notice immediately, but I'll mention them anyway...

1) The front left steering arm has been welded, pretty common, not a huge deal.

2) The frame rails have been welded in at least 3 places, both sides of the "tombstone" and on the left side transmission mount!!!

3) Headlights were removed due to loader.

4) ACR mechanism is broken and missing quite a lot (Personally don't care, not something I would use).

It does also have a front mounted hydraulic pump (drive shaft currently removed) and a front end loader.

Since you're looking anyway, is that the correct intake?

THANKS GUYS!

[52GasMajor]

I know the grey wheels are wrong, I didn't do it!

[52GasMajor]

Also any information on the starter would be helpful, as I haven't seen this one on any other Major or anywhere online... Works well enough, just want the information for future reference.

Tractor has had a 12 volt conversion...

[Billy26F5]

Brilliant puller Mathias, that does both types. The early pulleys have two holes, that changed at the same time as the belt width and seal ID. Nice early tractor, and the air filter is 100% original (AC type), as is the plain bonnet. Pre cleaners were only moved in 54, once the Major Diesel badge had been in use for a few weeks. Before then you could have the pre cleaner above but with a separate pipe and hose clip in addition to the std clip and pre cleaner. A rubber bung plugs the other hole, E1ADKN-18242. No issues with checking timing gears, but there are no replacements around, while you're there ensure the camshaft gear bolts are properly tightened and secured. The welding is bad news, especially the spindle arm. refit the missing bolts (1/2" UNC) and dismantle the spindle, welding usually hides poor maintenence and renders the spindle unuseable unless treated properly (very difficult). New spindles can be disastrous, so make sure you ask. Last time the subject came up it seemed Agriline had the good ones but this might well have changed. The main part the ACR is missing is the special top link, other than that you only appear to be missing the buffer, E1ADKN-995309 and the pins that fix it to the cross shaft legs. No conversion, that is all original. The only 6V Fordson is the industrial N, from 1946 electrics were 12V. The starter is the std spark ignition starter, with an inertia drive rather than the pre engaged setup on the diesel version, which is lever operated rather than a cable direct to the main starter switch as you have. The ID plate is in a very poor state, many are totally missing. The fuel tap is totally wrong, the right one is like this:

Common between petrol and diesel (as well as starter carb fitted TVO tractors, before the two way tap replaced the starter carb from 1239960). The fan belt you have is wrong, fitted in narrow pulleys. Yours should be E1ADKN-8620, 13/16" wide. There never was an alternator, many have been modified, your block coolant drain is also wrong, it was a bulky setup, with 1/4" BSP thread, E1ADKN-8115. The overflow should be direct with no tap, a pressure cap with 4 lb setting was std until 54, when it became optional.
Sandy

[52GasMajor]

Thanks Sandy,

I am fully aware that the fuel tap and block drains are wrong. The block had a blank plug in it, and that was all I had that fit the block (for now) to drain the old coolant and pressure test the system..

The fuel tap was done by the PO. Guessing he thought the same as me, just what he had kicking around that would do the job.

Lucky me there is a wrecker within 2 hours of me that has at LEAST 4 Majors to pick parts from, last I checked! . There was a member on here only a few years ago, Old52, that had catastrophic camshaft gear failure and he managed to find good timing gears out of the UK... Assuming he didn't know of our "local" tractor wreckers though.

I'll likely need to get at least two frame rails from the wrecker so when I make that trip I will be looking for steering parts as well...

I also am aware that it is the incorrect belt, but that's what the PO had on it...

I am not trying to restore it to 100% factory, just get it running and as reliable as it can be with the budget I'm working with.

I originally feared a sleeve seal leak or pinholes in the sleeves but I have pressure tested the system (@ 3psi) and believe the cooling system to be ok.

I fully realize prices will be different all over the place, that they're brittle and can break if you look at them sideways, however can anyone give me a rough idea of what it might cost to have the crankshaft reground by a shop?

Never brought one in for machining before and would like to know what I'm possibly getting myself into.

[52GasMajor]

Oh and there is no tap on the rad overflow, that's my home-made pressure tester you're seeing.

Removed rad cap, and clamped a piece of rubber and a block of wood over the filler neck.

Worked well enough...

Pressure test pics https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... i0VQ_rYJIo

[Billy26F5]

That's good to have a scrappy nearby. The fan belt is rather important to replace, the current one is very likely to slip for the pulleys are too wide for it to run properly. Do you think you have a crankshaft issue? If not don't disturb it, as long as it's kept in good condition it will last for a very long time. Can't help with prices, we did Super Billy's one a very long time ago, and I suspect it will have gone up a lot, apart from the fact that I don't remember the amount anyway. Never seen such a setup before, I'll keep it in mind when we need to pressure test something.
Sandy

[52GasMajor]

Hello again Sandy,

I will look for a replacement belt ASAP.

The tractor suffers from low oil pressure, +/-10psi, when warmed up, according to the pressure gauge...

I will be checking the "simple" things first such as changing the oil to something acceptable for this old machine, changing the oil filter, cleaning the intake screen on the oil pump, and checking/cleaning/replacing the pressure relief valve on the front plate (as well as the crankshaft seal).

If it's required would you happen to know what size sleeve my crank pulley would need if it's grooved? I believe it should be the older 2-bolt pulley, but am not sure as it has a splined attachment for the front hydraulic pump bolted to it currently...

If all of that does not help it, then I will have to plastigauge the crank bearings to be sure, but from reading many many posts on here it seems like worn crank/bearings (possibly camshaft) would be the most likely culprit if everything else checks out.

I REALLY hope it can be solved without having to split the tractor as that's much more time/work/money than I can afford to put into it at the moment, especially with the frame being welded as it is. Rear main crank seal needs to be done as well, however, it will have to wait.

I have read almost every oil related post I could find and it seems like everyone has their own opinions...

The "traditionalists" still prefer to use SAE 20,30,40 HD while I have seen many others saying that newer non-detergent synthetics are better...

What is your opinion on oils for these old machines? I would want an oil that doesn't thin too much as it heats up, correct? Oil additives...yes/no, good/bad?

Thanks again!

-Kyle

[Billy26F5]

Some folk have run on such pressures for years but it isn't really acceptable. An oil change is always a good idea, it normally helps. Checking the relief valve is also a good idea, these early ones could jam open causing such issues. Your pulley hub will be 2 1/2" where the seal runs (and have 2 bolt holes for pulling off), the thickness you replace depends on what you decide. Some folk weld up the groove and remachine it, that's your choice. I prefer the welding method as it avoids internal leaks that can happen with the liner method. To remove the crankshaft you need to remove the engine, so a big job. Rear crank seals are rope seals and need soaking in oil. The oil specified for spark ignition is not HD oil, that was only diesel engines. TVO was always a grade above petrol to compensate for oil thinning due to TVO bleeding through the rings. Never use synthetic oil, these engines require mineral oil. Synthetic oil is a different viscosity under the same grade, and will result in major damage. Multigrade plain mineral 20W50 is probably best suited to not loosing too much viscosity under temperature, diesel models would use a HD version of the same oil. Brian used that in all his engines, and actually, if the inside is reasonably clean there's a fair bit to be said for using detergent oil to keep the engine clean. Best done after overhaul. Never mix both kinds and even less put detergent oil into a dirty engine, the oil pump will fail very fast. The oil pump is also worth checking if the first jobs don't work, a damaged one won't be able to keep pressure and might not work at all if badly damaged.
Sandy

[52GasMajor]

Thank you for all of that information!

I would prefer to weld the pulley groove and then have it machined, versus sleeving it, I just wasn't sure that was even an option.

As for the oil pressure I should have stated that that is ~10psi at IDLE, and it does increase as the RPMs climb... Would that be considered "normal" or cause for concern? I MAY be jumping to conclusions and there are no oil issues, however , I would DEFINITELY rather be "safe than sorry".

I have only started this tractor 3 times since owning it, once to move it off the tow truck, once to get the rear tire valves at the top (to stop a valve leak and add air), and once to move it into a shelter in my yard where it now sits while I have a good look over everything... I have yet to see it run for more than 10 minutes.

This tractor will likely only really ever get used for moving bales of hay, pulling a trailer around the Shark, removing manure, and the odd 5 minute trip to town.

Back to the oil...

If the top end of the motor looks relatively clean and, with the sump removed, the bottom end looks fairly clean (sludge free)...I should look for a Mineral based 20W50 DETERGENT oil, correct?

I have not removed the sump yet, however, the top end looks pretty darn good to me.

[Billy26F5]

I was referring to idle oil pressure too. You're thinking the right way about it, much better to avoid issues. To clean the screen you only need to remove the cover plate on the bottom of the sump. If you're not sure about how clean the engine is don't risk using detergent oil, if you can clearly see it's clean then do use it. The previous oil's condition should help you see what it is, maybe the previous owner can shed some light into that too.
Sandy

[52GasMajor]

Ok so...

I have spoken with the PO and he says that he used conventional 10W30 oil in it. When asked about the brand or any other information he said it was Valvoline conventional 10W30.

Upon looking it up all I can find is this: Valvoline SAE 10W30 https://drive.google.com/file/d/14W6Q4w ... p=drivesdk

Which states it is a conventional oil and that it HAS DETERGENTS in it.

I am seeing posts saying to use 15W40 Diesel Oil (Shell Rotella) in the gas motors... [Shell Rotella Diesel Oil is what I use in my 4-stroke, wet clutch, dirt bikes BTW]

Other posts say nothing other than straight 30W mineral oil...

Some posts say the newer semi-synthetic/full synthetic oils are leaps and bounds better than the "old dinosaur oils"...

Yet other posts say use whatever you want, just make sure it is high in Zinc...

And your recommendation (Sandy) was 20W50 mineral oil...

Again looking into the top end it looks very clean, have not opened up the sump yet, but I believe he was very likely using a detergent oil (the one I posted above) without realizing it...

I REALLY need some help to figure this out and get some definitive answers.

Thanks again,
-Kyle

[52GasMajor]

Also, do you know which distributor is supposed to be on the '52 gas Major?

I can find the Ford part # for the body, cap, etc, however they have nothing to do with Lucas part #'s and those are what I need it seems.

[Billy26F5]

A look through the open sump plate would be very desirable, as well as down into the push rod area. Pics would help too. Lots of people have different ideas, but the only oils that won't cause trouble for sure are those specified by Ford. I do recommend basic multigrade oils, they do perform better, but as for the rest, if the engine is clean in the oil areas use detergent oils, they will keep that that way, if not keep away from them until a big overhaul where everything is clean on assembly. Never mix oils. As for the distributor, it's a Lucas 40275 (complete assembly), I need to know what detail parts you would need to know to post them. For your information (Lucas numbers), the coil is 45054, the starter switch is 76423, the dynamo is 22259, the regulator is 37172, the starter 26034 and the horn button is 76205. The parts you already have should have such numbers on them. I can give you lots of detail Lucas part numbers should you need them.
Sandy

[52GasMajor]

Thanks AGAIN Sandy! Will be writing all of that down somewhere with my tractor papers.

Unfortunately, the distributor that is on this tractor is NOT original!

It is a Lucas 41370 D. Date code 26 72. (In the first photo link posted above)

I did read somewhere that this distributor COULD be used for the Fordson Major (and clearly, at least somewhat, it can as that's what it's running with) with some adjustments to the vacuum advance . What those adjustments are and if they have been performed on this distributor is beyond me.

From what I read the original distributor is like hens teeth to find, they just don't exist anymore. Suggestions?

The motor starts fairly easily and runs well, other than a slight misfire that clears up as the motor warms up, however there is a decent sluggishness/hesitation when the motor is being put under load.

I believe it to be either the governor or the vacuum advance on the distributor that's causing it and would like to get the proper distributor to rule this one out as the issue.

I will be cleaning up the governor regardless.

No dynamo or regulator as this one has been switched to alternator, also no horn as the button is being used for the starter (for now) and the horn itself doesn't physically exist. 🫤

[52GasMajor]

Do electronic ignition conversions exist for these Majors?

[Billy26F5]

Can't help with finding parts as you're exactly right. Maybe your scrappy will have you in luck! I suspect your timing might be out, try to look at that a bit at a suitable moment. I don't think this governor is anything like as sharp as the diesel ones but I can't really say for I haven't been lucky enough to try one out for real. Oiling the shaft through the block is probably worth it, it will give better control. Governor should be ok but easy to clean. There's a fair chance you do still have the regulator, as it's in the dash. Shame about the horn button, see if you find the starter switch and cable. I see you have an aftermarket solenoid in its place. The original setup was like this:

Note this image is later than your tractor, you have the original brake locking setup. Never heard of electronic ignition for Major's, but maybe someone has done it. Can't help you there, nor am I a fan of modern stuff.
Sandy

[52GasMajor]

So the original solenoid was cable actuated? Interesting...

My gauges appear to be correct, the choke cable, horn button, and ignition are where they belong, however, the hole for the starter cable is just that...an empty hole.

My panel also has a very small silver "knob" that pulls out to turn on the gauge lights (and likely was also used for the headlights, etc).

I am certain it has an incorrect ignition in it as it has a spring-return "starting" position, as well as "accessory only" position (CCW from "off") so I will just end up wiring the solenoid to the key switch for now (not sure why PO had it set up this way), and then using the horn button for its intended purpose.

I'll try to remember to upload a photo shortly.

I really don't suspect that the timing on the motor is off, but I could definitely be wrong.

I really believe that it is the ignition advance timing on the distributor that is causing the issue I'm experiencing. I suspect that this distributor has a VERY different advance curve from what is supposed to be on this tractor.

I have sent an email to "thedistributordoctor" and am awaiting a reply to see if they can shed some light on this.

Should the plate(s) and steel balls in the governor be greased, oiled, or dry?

Would just squirting oil through the hole in the block, for the governor linkage, be sufficient or do I need to withdraw the rod, oil both, and reassemble?

Thank you so much for answering my questions Sandy!

[Billy26F5]

It was a switch, not a solenoid as there's no separate coil and electric operating mechanism, just a heavy duty switch (Lucas 76423, sorry for the error, 76427 was used on E27N's). The cable between the switch and dash was like the choke cable but with a knob marked appropriately, either a single initial as in the manual or fully spelled out (the choke will tell you what it should be). The ignition switch sounds totally wrong. It was a Ford made part, with the key being on-off only, and on is 45 degrees anticlockwise; the light switch is off, anticlockwise for side onlt, clockwise for dipped and full headlights on separate detents. Completely metal part, modern repro versions are a huge dissappointment in quality in comparison. Sounds like a good plan to me, there never were gauge lights, but a handy extra if you happen to be in the dark. Good to contact distributor experts, I'm not so can't help much there, see what they say. A service might sort the issue, I'll post the instructions for that:

Points should be at 0.014"-0.016". Timing before 1238809 was 9º BTDC for petrol and 14º BTDC for TVO. As you have a different distributor it's possible that neither setting will be ok.
As for the governor, it's oiled by the engine oil, should have around 1/6 pint in it. As for the shaft, better to remove it, it'll just pull out after removing a screw on its RHS, then squirt engine oil in with an oil can.
Sandy

[52GasMajor]

You're awesome Sandy!

A question I never even thought to ask until now...

Any concerns with modern gasoline, especially the ethanol content and lack of lead? I'm sure that's what the PO had been using, but still...

I am in talks with a distributor rebuilder in the USA currently and I will let you know what I learn about the distributor(s).

Thanks!

-Kyle

[52GasMajor]

Also, when the timing mark on the front cover lines up with the mark on the crankshaft pulley, what ° is the motor set at?

It that at TDC - 0°,
8° BTDC, or ?

So far I have learned that the curve map, of even the ORIGINAL Lucas 40275, is completely and totally wrong for modern gasoline.

Still in talks with the rebuilder. Hoping to learn as much as I can. I explained to him, and now you as well, that I know very little about distributors.

I can replace consumables and set the breaker gap, but that's about it...

[Billy26F5]

Not really sure, there used to be a separate additive to add to unleaded petrol for old engines, but we've barely used it on our petrol engines and they're fine, but can't really answer. The timing pointer marks the setting required, but that might be any of the possible settings I mentioned or even 29ºBTDC if a diesel one is fitted. See if you can find a part number on it. Remember these engines are not meant to run any faster than 1600 rpm.
Sandy