59 FPM - Smokin' like a chimney!

Post by **Brian** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:20 pm

Sorry RW but it is totally wrong that there is oil in the pump. If you read the Fordson Manual, it will tell you that Fusus Oil is used when the pump is in storage but once the pump is in use, diesel is allowed to leak from the pumping elements to lubricate the pump.

There is a pigtail leakoff pipe fitted to the cam box to allow excess diesel to bleed onto the ground.

I do hold a qualification from Ford Motor company on injection pump and injecter overhaul and worked for a time in our own injection pump repair shop repairing pumps to Ford and Simms specification.

The pump that JC showed in his picture is an early industrial pump, not a tractor pump and in some cases these pumps had either a vacuum pump fitted or a mechanical governor which was filled with oil via the side plate.

Quote from the Original Workshop Manual.

Fill pump with engine oil to the level hole through the inspection cover after the pump has been overhauled or after it has received major attention.

Thereafter it requires no further lubrication as the permissable leak back of fuel from the plungers collects in the cam box and the level hole ensures that the correct quantity is maintained[/u]

henk · Post by **henk** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:33 pm

I have made a small tube to the pigtail pipe and this comes out in a small bottle witch I have placed into the side beam. You can't see it. It has collected half a bottle in one year. I think about 75cc. But I have not much running hours. The colour of the use diesel is like dirty oil.

R W · Post by **R W** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:42 am

[quote="Brian"] but it is totally wrong that there is oil in the pump. If you read the Fordson Manual[/b][/u][/quote]

I agree with what you have said as I worked a Power Major for 25 years and this was never looked at or mentioned by the dealer's mechanic who carried out services and repairs in the early years.
After 25 years it was decided that the pump and injectors needed attention, these were overhauled by a person
with long experience both as a diesel mechanic and a diesel
pump specialist.
On completion of repairs it was suggested to me to check the cam box about every 12 months or so and if low add
50/50 diesel/engine oil, he actually swapped the side plate for one with a filler plug.
His reason for informing me of this was due to the fact that it was not uncommon to receive pumps for overhaul that had not received adequate lubrication in the cam box.
I am not quoting from a workshop manual only from a person who was highly experienced,skilled and held in high regard in his profession.

rustyal · Post by **rustyal** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:49 am

I guess you checked the push rods. Yes that is the pump without oil.

Post by **Brian** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:49 am

The problem with putting oil in the pump and the reason why you avoid it is simply that the pump should never be opened without being in a controlled environment. It should only be opened in a dust free and moisture free room.

As the only way to get oil into the cam box is through the side plate, this has to be removed allowing any dirt, grit and other nastiest directly into the high precision workings of the pump.

In a normal farming environment, shed or workshop, the life of the pump would be severely reduced if constantly being opened to fill.

This was drilled into us by Simms and Ford both in handouts and factory training. Diesel is an oil. Therefore in the pump designers eyes, it is a lubricant and the pump is designed to run in diesel and use it as such.

Extra oil will be diluted with diesel and will drain out of the overflow in about two to three days so to fill the pump with oil is pointless and can, in fact, reduce the life of the pump.

As the pump is one of the most expensive items on a diesel engine, and one of the most easily damaged by misuse. It is best that servicing is left to trained engineers.

As always, I have no problem with what you do to your individual tractors, but I do feel that the Ford manual must be the guide to repairs on the tractors, on this site.

LazyTRanch · Post by **LazyTRanch** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:38 pm

Well, here's the update on what I found...

I pulled off the lines again (didn't start it this time), plugged the holes with my fingers, and activated the stop lever. No noticeable suction or pressure, no "thunk" when letting of. Tried this in a variety of ways (as I didn't print it out and was going from memory and was thinking I might have not remembered directions right.) There was never any noticeable pressure or suction no matter what I did.

So, I pulled off the governor and tried things when holding the holes. Pushing the diaphragm in doesn't create pressure on the plugged holes, nor does pushing it in and plugging the holes result in the diaphragm being held in place. I haven't taken the diaphragm out of the assembly or inspected it too closely, but it definitely seems like it isn't air-tight.

Tim

LazyTRanch · Post by **LazyTRanch** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:51 pm

Well, here's an update to the update.

I pulled the governor apart (or I should say, I allowed the governor to fly apart like a Jack-in-the-box,) and upon inspection of the diaphragm I found about a half-inch hole along one of the seams.

I assume that could be a problem

JC · Post by JC » Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:46 am

I think you found the problem. I hope you found all the parts to the governor, too!
Your Ford-New Holland Dealer can get you a new diaphragm, but they're pretty expensive and it usually takes a while to get one. Yesterday's Tractors sells Sparex ones for around $28. The last one I bought didn't take very long to get here, if I remember right.

Post by **Brian** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:27 am

That is great. Well done JC for getting us pointed in the right direction.

Tim,
Check that the bit the diaphram connects to in the pump is moving freely against the spring.

I am still a bit concerned about the tractor needing starting fluid but if you can get it running properly to start with, you can move to that as and when time and finance allow.

LazyTRanch · Post by **LazyTRanch** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:23 am

Still around!

Got the diaphragm from YT and installed it after giving that part of the governor a cleaning. Shortly before ordering the diaphragm I ordered an exhaust elbow from another place (Import Tractors?) That was a disaster and I finally got a refund and placed an order for the elbow from YT.

I felt I should get the elbow as whoever had this in the past put a bottom firing "Cherry Bomb" muffler on it. Bad news in tall, dry, grass.

Well, the elbow arrived today and I purchased a muffler and a rain cap. Tomorrow I go pick up my new equipment trailer for the tractor. So, I'm hoping to put everything together and give it a test this weekend (assuming something else doesn't come up!)

I'll keep everyone informed of any progress (or lack thereof.)

Tim

LazyTRanch · Post by **LazyTRanch** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:58 pm

It's like chasing down one problem just brings me to the next

Well, after changing the diaphragm and verifying the "suction test" is working (holds until fingers come off the holes,) and installing the new elbow, muffler, and raincap, I tried starting it again.

Well, nothing without starting fluid. If I give it a quick shot, it will run off the starting fluid, but won't run on it's own. Seems now like it's starved for fuel.

So, I make sure everything is bled out. Getting good, clear, diesel all the way to the bleed plug on the injector pump. Doesn't make sense. So, I pull the tubing from the back of the injectors to see if fuel is making it there.

Turns out the front two tubes are spitting diesel to their heart's desire, right as expected. Out of the rear two tubes there is nothing! Not even a little spurt or even a trickle!

Would this indicate a problem with the pump, or perhaps something I induced when replacing the governor unit? (I did make sure the yoke was in the follower, vent and return tubs are in right holes, etc... not sure what opportunities to mess up are there.) Or perhaps these two always had opportunities but the excessive fuel running through from the governor being bad covered for it?

Thanks in advance for any insight!
Tim

LazyTRanch · Post by **LazyTRanch** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:17 am

Well, I went back a little later and goofed with it again. There is now little squirts for all cylinders right before the injectors. Perhaps some air still needed to be bled. Still no starting or continued run after using starting fluid. Frustrating. I like it better when it smoked, at least it ran

JC · Post by JC » Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:02 am

Tim,
Its late right now and I'm half asleep, but the only thing that I can think of, at the moment, is the governor spring. Did it get left out somehow when you changed the diaphragm?

LazyTRanch · Post by **LazyTRanch** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:10 am

JC wrote:Tim,
Its late right now and I'm half asleep, but the only thing that I can think of, at the moment, is the governor spring. Did it get left out somehow when you changed the diaphragm?

I'm sure that all went back together as in the manual. But, since it was the only thing that really "changed", I thought I should remove it and double check everything. If I get a chance (and it's under 100 degrees), I might try that tomorrow.

I guess I have to look at the bright side though... at least it isn't smoking like a chimney any more

JC · Post by JC » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:56 am

LazyTRanch wrote: If I get a chance (and it's under 100 degrees), I might try that tomorrow.

It was close to 100 here today, and its usually hotter where you live, so I'll bet you didn't work on it today.

LazyTRanch · Post by **LazyTRanch** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:13 pm

JC wrote:
LazyTRanch wrote: If I get a chance (and it's under 100 degrees), I might try that tomorrow.
It was close to 100 here today, and its usually hotter where you live, so I'll bet you didn't work on it today.

That was a safe bet

I did use the early morning and late evening time to work on the trailer for it. It's over at a friends house a couple miles away so I can't just step out and work on it as easy as I like. If I get the trailer all done, I could winch it up onto it and bring it home and work on it here.

We're looking at up to 106 for the next few days, not to mention I am helping with a "firearms familiarization" event tonight (and I used that as an excuse to stay inside during the hottest part of the day to do some reloading.) So, it might be a few more days unless I can sneak out one of the next few evenings. I do detest this oppressive heat and can't wait until we can start spending more time at our high-altitude Shark!

Post by **Brian** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:02 pm

Did you take the pump off to change the diaphragm?

If so, it is possible that you have the timing 180 degrees out. Check that the clamp bolt on the pump drive shaft is towqrds the underneath of the shaft when all the marks line up.

LazyTRanch · Post by **LazyTRanch** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:53 am

Brian wrote:Did you take the pump off to change the diaphragm?

If so, it is possible that you have the timing 180 degrees out. Check that the clamp bolt on the pump drive shaft is towards the underneath of the shaft when all the marks line up.

Left the pump on and just removed the governor assembly so all is as it was when it was running away before. Took off the assembly again just to make sure all was as in the repair manual and it is all good.

It's just not getting fuel in the cylinders it seems. When the governor was bad, it was getting so much fuel that it was seeping out from around the injector ports (outside the block.) This no longer happens. If I pull out the tubes from the back of the injector, they are all "spurting" now though. I guess the next step would be to see if they are actually spraying from the injector. Is is possible that the injectors are allowing the fuel to make it into the cylinder now that there isn't the ungoverned flow there was before?

Grrr... I'm thinking about bringing it home to my own driveway as it's at a friends house and I have to take trips over there to try anything.

Dandy Dave · Post by **Dandy Dave** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:13 pm

These old diesels don't always bleed easy. You have to be sure that all the air is out of the system, and the system will build pressure before they will run. Have you changed the fuel filter? Dandy Dave!

Post by **Brian** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:24 pm

It might be time to try her on ether or a tow to see if she will start.

JC · Post by JC » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:06 am

Did you push the excess fuel button in before you tried to start it? That should give the engine as much fuel as it was getting with the old diaphragm. If that doesn't work, something else must have changed. What made you decide that the fuel system needed to be bled?

Dandy Dave · Post by **Dandy Dave** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:04 pm

Ahhh yes. The excessive fuel button.

If you don't know that it is there, it is pretty elusive.

Push that,... and try it again.

Dandy Dave!

LazyTRanch · Post by **LazyTRanch** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:08 pm

JC wrote:Did you push the excess fuel button in before you tried to start it? That should give the engine as much fuel as it was getting with the old diaphragm. If that doesn't work, something else must have changed. What made you decide that the fuel system needed to be bled?

I did not know of that button! Learn something new every day!

I bled the fuel system after checking the lift pump again. The last one had clogged from sediment from the tank (aftermarket 12v ones.) I was afraid the new one was doing it too, and I also added an inline one before it. I went ahead and emptied the seperator bowl and was going to buy a filter for it, but nobody seems to think they exist anymore (CCS11893.) But, during the bleed, there was a strong flow of fuel all the way to the bleed screw on the top of the pump so that should be all good now.

Maybe at lunch, I'll try the button. I pulled and charged the battery last night so I could give it a go again today, so I'll have lots of juice to burn up trying to start it

I did pick up a new winch, so if it isn't starting in the next few days, I'm putting it on the trailer and bringing it home where I can put more time in it, instead of the short little trips here and there. My window for working on the Nevada Shark is rapidly shrinking so I gotta get 'er going!

LazyTRanch · Post by **LazyTRanch** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:05 am

Well, I spent a good deal of time goofing with the tractor this weekend. End result = no result.

Just a recap of what transpired from the beginning:

1. Thing would only start with starting fluid, when it did start it ran way fast and poured tons of smoke.
2. Found out the diaphragm in the vacuum governor had a slit in it, ordered another and replaced it.
3. After replacing the governor it wouldn't run at all. Only runs on starting fluid like it was starved for fuel.

Some facts that may or may not be of importance that also transpired:

A. Bought and installed a muffler based on size to fit new original style elbow I put on (along with rain cap.) But found out it isn't a straight through, it has a baffle. Pulled it off and put old one on, no difference.
B. (Might be very important!) I did turn the screw on the left side of Simms pump. Researching later I found out this is set "on the bench" during a rebuild.
C. Put an inline fuel filter immediately after the fuel tank, before the new lift pump.
D. Before installing the fuel filter, I drained all the fuel, and replaced it with fresh No. 2 diesel.

That's where it ended last time. I did try the button from the last post, no difference.

So, here is what I did this weekend:
1. Pulled the injectors and soaked them in parts cleaner, drained them, and then hooked them back up to the fuel lines (not back in the head.)
2. Had someone crank it while I checked for spray. It was only spraying from the front cylinder.
3. Swapped the second with the first, and it sprayed only from the first.
4. Adjusted the screw that I shouldn't have adjusted on the Simms. It started from all the way out, and a little over two turns, all of the nozzles were making a fine cloud of fuel.
5. Thinking I'd got it figured out, I re-installed the nozzles, put everything back together, and tried starting again.

Nothing! This time it seemed like there were little puffs of unburnt fuel coming out of the muffler which seemed like a little improvement. But, it would only start with a shot of starting fluid, and wouldn't remain running.

So, reading the document (I think I found it on here, or maybe it was from this thread) there are three things required for these engines to run... fuel, compression, and air.

So, I'm thinking it's not air as I take off the hose to give it a shot of fluid. I'm thinking there is fuel, because I saw the "diesel clouds" when the injectors were out. So, does this mean I'm missing compression?

Couple notes not covered above:

A. I did check the push rods and they were all straight (as someone mentioned that in the thread.)
B. When cranking the engine with the injectors out, it cranked much easier than with them in (seeming like there was some compression.) Also when pulling it, if I put it in gear and let out the clutch, it felt like it had compression too as it would almost stop the truck in 1st.
C. Timing was verified early on in troubleshooting.

So, what next? If I purchase a full rebuild kit, am I wasting my time/money? Meaning, if I overhaul the motor, could it have possibly been the pump or the injectors?

Related to the rebuild kit, are the full rebuild kits on eBay a valid option? They are around $375 if I remember correctly. I'm sure I could do the work myself. But if I tell my wife "$375" and then it doesn't run still... hot water!

The wisdom of you all is greatly appreciated

Thanks in advance!

JC · Post by JC » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:38 am

Hi Tim,
I don't think that you should buy an engine kit just yet. If the engine had enough compression to run before you changed the diaphragm, it still should. Something changed in the governor or the pump. I'm not sure exactly which screw you adjusted on the pump, but if its the one I think it is, it limits the rack travel. If you screwed it in, you might be able to keep the rack from moving far enough to give it any fuel. I think that Brian is having too much fun in Holland to read this right now, but when he does, he may have some good ideas. He knows way more about these injector pumps than I do.

The Fordson Tractor Pages Forum

59 FPM - Smokin' like a chimney!

The Push Rods Bent?

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