Next move for our 1954 Fordson Major Diesel

[leeroy]

I should've checked computer earlier because I did have the rocker cover off! I Wii be to sure to oil the valve train up next time.
Here is the progress: I can turn by hand for quite a bit, then hit a stop. No loud noise etc. I can turn it back the other way and come to same spot
I have the starter off and can pry flywheel. I don't know how much is too much, so pleas advise. I was alone and did not get a good look at valve train as motor was turned.

[Billy26F5]

I was meaning it more for when you start the engine, but oil is always good for anything that needs it. Have you tried with the decompressor closed in both spots? If even like that it still doesn't want to move I would now consider looking in through the injector holes. Oil in there will never do harm in suitable amounts and it might be all that's missing. The condition of the injector nozzles will also potentionally point to what is happening. You're very close now, that all looks quite dirty so a clean might be worth doing but see what happens with the dirt once it gets oily again first (referring to the internal parts, the outside is a different matter, it also wants cleaning but only when everything is closed up again).
Sandy

[leeroy]

The decompression didn't seem to make any difference in resistance while turning. I'll mark pulley with a crayon tomorrow but I'd guess the pulley gets close to a complete turn. Does this tell you anything?
Sandy you mentioned being in neutral and I meant to address that. The ball and socket are badly corroded but I think I am in neutral. I will take shift off and get a picture tomorrow. Not sure if a helper could hold down clutch while I try to turn it over by hand would be a good idea. Would I be able to turn it that much if it was in gear? Please keep in mind that we are fairly new to a seized engine.

[Billy26F5]

You shouldn't need to mark the pulley as it has the timing notch at 29ºBTDC, I suspect it is time to remove the injectors but try this first. Try moving high and low and also disengage the PTO. The clutch will help but with high and low in "neutral" (there's no hole for the detent retainer but I've often had that lever like that, it is like that on our half Super Major right now) and the PTO disengaged you're only turning the input shaft and primary lower shaft and PTO idler gear. The main gear lever sounds like it needs work, but that I would wait for the engine to run so it can be done in a more convenient place. You can get a fair amount of a turn if it's in gear, depends on the condition of all the parts (and the gear too) as if they're almost new there might be only a quarter turn or less, I very much doubt that this one is as little as that and think it could be in gear. The clutch is a slightly separate item and needs to be tested separately so that you don't suddenly find it's stuck. I certainly wouldn't say the engine is seized if it turns well when it does, I think the problem is either you're in gear or there's a deposit of sorts in a cylinder, the latter I think is unlikely as you do seem to have good movement. It could be possible that it's just dropped a valve as you've moved the engine around but that's unlikely and it's very unlikely you would have these issues with a dropped valve anyway.
Sandy

[leeroy]

I look forward to double checking the pto is disengaged. I did try the high low and it felt a little stiff. I didn't want to force in and spin that handle on the shaft. Maybe I need to take the cover off where the flat belt pulley would be and inspect? I know what you mean about neutral there as Hyacinth, our other '55 FMD will sometimes be in neutral.
Thanks for the explanation on how much turn you can get if it's engaged. To understand what is possibly going on I used the crank handle on our Farmall M to turn the motor while it was is gear- coincidentally it was about the same as the Majors.
I'll look for the timing mark on the pulley too. I'll look in book for the pointer, but so far have not noticed it. Hopefully in another 6 hours, I'll have more news!

[Billy26F5]

The pointer is attached by the same bolts as the dynamo front bracket, the notch will be in the rear of the pulley. The PTO shouldn't stop the engine turning, but it will add a fair amount of drag. I wouldn't bother with the belt pulley cover for now, those levers do occasionally get stiff if not used, Billy's one used to be a real workout to use, but it's now very easy to do one handed. You might still have the early high low lever here but that has a large separate knob so you should be able to tell at a glance, those ones always get play, if it's the later one then make sure the clamp bolt is tight then you should be fine no matter how stiff it is and it should improve as you use it.
Isn't Hyacinth early 55? (or so I seem to remember)
Sandy

[leeroy]

Yes you are correct on Hyacinths year being an early 1955!
I see now in the shop manual where the pointer is.
The high low lever does not have a seperate knob. It is the same as Hyacinth's which you may remember helping with as it was stuck in high when we first got it running.
Let me know if a picture of anything specific would be helpful.
I thought I had a picture of the plug that cracked but I can't find one.We ordered one, but it ended up being the smaller plug behind and under the seat.

[Billy26F5]

That means it's the same pointers with this one as with Hyacinth, I remember being surprised at that lever not having the split that all of ours have, if the clamp bolt is tight just work at the lever a bit and it should gradually loosen up. I would recommend you get a plug from a scrapy, as then you can be sure it's the right one. It'll also look more suitable, as the new ones are not very similar to original ones. In theory you have one of the last injector pumps with the early excess fuel device, but I think other parts are as later such as no pre-filter in the pump inlet. Quite curious to see what number there is on the inspection cover, there seem to be for fewer of them that I would have expected. I noticed this before but never said, the fuel filter to injector pump pipe is wrong and I would say in doubtful condition, so another bit to consider if you visit a scrapy.
Several progress pics would be great, as well as some general ones.
If you look as some pics Brian took years ago you'll see a TVO timing pointer which is quite different as the timing is different yet both use the same pulley with the same mark.
Sandy

[leeroy]

Hyacinth has the timing cover and opening on the engine pan.

Here a picture into the main transmission and shift lever. Both in poor shape. Still not positive if Daisy is in neutral. Made sure pto was not engaged and tried with clutch pedal down.


The pulley will turn just shy of a full turn in either direction. It's tough trying to watch the plungers alone while also turning, but it appears there is no movement? Would this go back to what @John b mentioned about the cam in the injector pump being seized? Or with just shy of a full turn of pulley on engine rule that out? As a novice I don't really understand what and how much should be moving while I turn engine by hand.

[Billy26F5]

That is what I would have expected, the pic in the manual is from the Power Major era. Those don't look great (plenty of cleaning needed) but I would say you are in neutral. The high low neutral is ahead of the main gears and leaves them disconnected. I would do a tappet clearance check to see what you get. Exhaust 0.012", intake 0.015", always use the rule of 9, and make sure the opposite valve is fully open or the measurement will be inaccurate (you'll get too much clearance). This will need to be repeated hot later on. What position is it in when it stops? A pic of that would be great. If the plungers or tappets are stuck they'll normally stick in the up position, but knowing the position the engine is in can help, however if the injector pump were related you would get nearly two turns so I don't think it's that. Is plunger no. 3 moving? After checking these things I would recommend looking at the cylinders through the injector holes and at the injector nozzles. Everything should move just as it does when running but far more slowly. How does the clutch feel? Glad Daisy has a name!
Sandy

[John b]

Sounds very much like there is a "rust ring" on one or more of the bores from where the piston rings were sat for a long time. As Sandy says it is time to remove the injectors and get some oil down the bores, let it soak for a couple of days and gently keep working the engine by hand and eventually it should free off and turn over freely. Turning it now without any oil in the bores risks breaking a piston ring or scoring the bores, you will have to add enough oil to fill the centre hollow of the piston so it will completely cover the top of the piston (you can mix it with diesel to thin it a bit and help it run through the piston rings)

[Billy26F5]

I would recommend an old school oil can, you can then get plenty of oil directly at the side rather than have to fill the combustion chambers first (I would have the piston quite low so some oil goes on the rings in a clean patch first thus giving better lubrication for later). I still think a look before is worth it as you should be able to find which cylinders are worse. The injector nozzles will help with that too as they'll show any potential rust as well. If you use diesel you'll have to change the oil and eventually put clean oil in the cylinders anyway, so that is worth having in mind. Having seen the top I would probably want new oil anyway, and a careful clean would be good too although that is quite a hard job.
Sandy

[leeroy]

Alright, guess it's time to remove those injectors. I'll likely have questions along the way. One that comes to mind is can I just rest the injectors back in their respective cylinders while they soak? And is putting the rocker cover back on good enough protection during soak. Also wondering if I should remove air cleaner and then the firewall. I was a little concerned with that tight spot between firewall and rocker cover being hard to clean up.
Sandy is this the oil can style:

My son bought it to oil cylinders in his IH 504 injector holes. He also bought Marvel Mystery Oil. Popular here in the states, not sure if you've all heard of it.
There's that shaft we finally got out too.

[Billy26F5]

Never heard of that oil. I would do exactly as you say to keep dirt out, the rear of the rocker cover isn't actually too bad to clean but it can be more fiddly. Be careful to avoid dropping bolts, it'a all too easy, and getting them out again is not. If you have the injector lifting bar (E1ADDN-17098) and the injector spanner (E1ADKN-17108) you'll have a much easier job, it can easily be done without either but it's a bit harder, especially if the injectors are stuck hard. Very handy oil can, that should be excellent as you can point it all the way round. Quite a lot of rust there, glad it's out now.
Sandy

[leeroy]

Solo again today so I can't really see what's going on when I turn the motor.
The valve train seems to move some. I cannot find my feeler gauge to check tappet clearance. Terminology: are the push rods on the injector pump side of engine? I seem to remember on Hyacinth that some would have barely any play but others could be moved up and down?

Have an unexpected day off so decided to try getting injectors off.

[Billy26F5]

Push rods are indeed on the same side as the injector pump. Some will be loose and some will be tight depending on the position of the engine, but when one valve is fully open, the opposite one corresponding to the rule of 9 should be loose. You won't probably be able to check all of them for now as the camshaft like the injector pump runs at half the speed of the crankshaft. Looks like the leak off line came off fine.
Sandy

[leeroy]

Yes I ended up removing injectors and Daisy is now soaking in a mixture of "PB Blaster" and "Marvel Mystery Oil". I figured if the leak off line came off easy I would keep going. The first injector almost had me give up. But I took that short piece off that passes through that rubber piece and was able to pry it up. The next three went nicely. The last bolt on the last injector almost got away! It happened to be a bit longer and had a washer. Taking those bolts out was nerve wracking but I am glad for the warning. I may not have been as careful. Planned on cleaning her up but felt it would be alright so I went for it. Hope that was not a bad choice, although I feel confident there was no contamination from dirt, or worse, rust from the hood.
The picture is injector # 3, but they all looked the same as did the bores. 2 came out with the brass washer, 2 left them in the bore.
Wasn't sure if I should put it all back together, but decided that would be best. There should also be a picture of the fuel shutoff. I had an old spare so spun one out and quickly spun in the replacement.
What should I do next? I did hand turn the engine a little each way everytime I oiled each cylinder.

Standby for pictures.

[leeroy]

Daisy is turning all the way over by hand!!! More details soon after I milk our cow this evening. I know I've got a lot to do yet but I'm smiling! Thanks everyone!

[Billy26F5]

That's excellent news! Did any injector nozzle show rust evidence? In good condition they should only have light carbon, just like no.3. That fuel tap doesn't look too bad (assume you took it apart after removing it), the filter on it is desirable but the early ones had a slightly different arrangement. Billy is also missing it, so far I haven't found one that looks like the original setup for these (roughly as in the parts book, the filter was not a separate part). From your comments I think you would have been well off with the injector lifting bar, we had similar trouble with our half Super Major and in the rush to take it apart wrecked the nozzle tips of three of them, although they would have been changed anyway as they were stuck (the needle valves inside, when we took them apart a long time later) and didn't look great in general. The longer bolt with a washer could be an issue, injector bolts should be marked HT and be fitted without washers, they should be 5/16" UNC, 1 1/8" long with some 1/2" plain portion. The copper washer location is no problem if it's well stuck in but if it's moved then you should really anneal them before refitting the injectors definitively (any inlet adaptors you took off should have had a copper washer too which could also do with the same treatment, but those will aditionally need to be dieseled up before fitting with clean diesel after being cleaned). You should have been fine as long as no dirt fell in, but there's a fair amount of internal dirt there too. It might be a case of replacing the oil and filter quite quickly early on to get rid of that dirt, but it might be so solid it will stay put. All I can say is I would probably want to clean that very carefully before running.
Sandy

[leeroy]

No rust, they all looked the same.
The fuel tap was in bad shape. When I tried to open it that valve came right out and would not thread back in. It was plugged solid. There was a screen on it but it easily fell off.
When you say clean it very carefully, do you mean the valve train in general?
So as I turned it I think I could feel the compression stroke at each cylinder. It was strong and couldn't get by it unless decompression was up.
Do I need to take injectors out and try to push any remaing oil out before attempting to start?

[Billy26F5]

All sounds good now, glad there's no rust. As you're getting round fully now I think you'll be ok, see if you can do so a bit fast (decompressor open), that should get any oil out of wrong spots. You should be able to get past compression but only with hard work and slowly. A look in won't do any harm. Any other pics of the tap (and the remains of the filter)? I do mean the top of the engine in general, you don't want any of that dirt going down into the oil. You're nearly there, only a wee bit more and Daisy will be back!
Sandy

[leeroy]

I'll get more pictures of the tap this morning. Believe it had "AC" stamped on, which I guessed was AC Delco?
As you know I've got fuel systems to go over, but an attempt at starting is getting closer. Checking starter today with any luck I have another day off.
The radiator has not been checked. Hoses look poor.Can we do a start attempt and possible short run without coolant or water?

[Billy26F5]

It is indeed, they were based in Dunstable and made lift pumps, filters and gauges as well for Major's. I would check the commutator and brushes first, as that's easy (all you need to do is remove the cover band). Then just connect the field terminal and body to a battery (negative pole to field terminal) and it should work, separately check that the pinion is almost fully back before the switch connects to avoid clashes with the ring gear. Try putting water with a wee bit of corrosion inhibitor in and see where it comes out of, as well as the hoses I also suspect the water pump seal but hopefully you'll be lucky. Never run the engine without at least water with a wee bit of corrosion inhibitor, as the liner o-rings will be ruined otherwise (as well as other parts). You could do a quick run with the water pump inlet plugged if you wanted to but it's probably easier just to wait till everything is ok. As for the fuel system start as you have and work down till you get to the injector pump, I would change the fuel filter and clean out the fuel tank, the latter is really hard work but well worth it. In the injector pump I would put oil and diesel in to help free up the rack, plungers and tappets. The oil can will be well worth using here remember to keep all dirt out of the pump.
Sandy

[leeroy]

Here's a better picture of the AC fuel tap Sandy. There is a part number if you have any interest, didn't get that side in the picture. AC lift pump like you said. Filthy, as was the fuel filter. Lots of clear water came out bottom.
I was able to move the petcock on the bottom of the radiator and got decent looking coolant. The block drain looks fragile so I left it alone for now.
Timing marks on injector are on with pulley mark and pointer. There was the concoction I used down injector holes into cylinder in the exhaust elbow.
Hopefully this was to be expected? Air cleaner bottom is in bad shape as you can see. I had to work this morning so did not get as much done as I hoped. Taking it slow is probably best. Will need new fuel line from tank to lift pump. I have a new lift pump. I have a new fuel filter as well. I hate to steal lines from the Super, but I might. The fuel tank looks clean and I opened tap and drained until fuel was clean. We will drain the rest and start with fresh fuel.
I bet the water pump seal is no good either and the dynamo doesn't sound to promising.

[Billy26F5]

Most of that needs a clean but little more, I think you'll find most of them will clean fine (I find new lift pumps don't look quite right and prefer to fix original ones, kits are available but be careful as they're often not quite right). The air filter bowl could be a bit trickier but that you'll only find out when you fill it with oil. Probably will need replacing (these were made by AC and Burgess, Billy's one is an AC one, If Daisy's one looks quite different it will be a Burgess one, parts are not interchangeable, only the complete air filter and only for certain periods),

that and the fuel lines would be best found in a scrapy or other second hand source as new ones are not great. The tap filter does look a bit like the parts book illustration, looks much better there nice and complete with the mesh and valve. The part no. on the tap it the AC one, not the Ford one (quite curious to see if it's the same as Billy's one). Glad you got good looking coolant coming out, the block drain tap should't really be a problem to open, they're made of brass and should free up with a little persuation. If oil mixture has come out I think that's good, can you now turn over with the decompressor closed? I don't recommend mixing pipes as only one is actually the same (the filter to injector pump one), all the rest are different and not interchangeable. Don't replace the water pump seal until you see it leak, you might be surprised. To change the seal you'll need a puller and press to remove and refit the impeller, which has to end up at 0.030" from the pump body. I don't recommend new pump bodies as they're wrong and normally for later engines anyway. What's the matter with the dynamo? A similar check as the starter should do the job, there's also the regulator in the dash buit it's normally well shielded in there and survives quite well. If you're getting new fuel in the tank I strongly recommend you use the old fuel to help you clean the tank, (the bit behind the steering column it the worst both for dirt and access, and it's worse on the later tanks as the hole is twice the size to accomodate the wiring, tachometer cable and throttle shaft) it works quite well and keeps the inside on the stuff it was made for, then you can use that diesel on rusty bolts and so on. Even if the inside looks reasonable you should shift some dirt by doing this. The water in the fuel is not great but as long as it's not in the injector pump or engine oil you should be fine with a good clean.
You're getting there.
Sandy