posted December 31, 2005 02:12            

But most of all, the control valve in there looks absolutety like no other I have seen in any parts book,website diagram, or my shop manuel. It has a large mushroom type end where the control valve link/turnbuckle fits. And under this mushroom end is a large spring that fits between the mushroom end and the plate that holds the control valve in its bushing. There is no spring on the other end. the control valve when in place extends nearly the length of the bushing. There is nearly as much control valve sticking out of the bushing as in the bushing. I don't know if this explains things well. I will try to post a picture if I can borrow my brother's digital camera in the morning. Right off I could see because of the need to travel further to operate the control valve, even with the turnbuckle extended all it can, the control valve was not moving far enough into the bushing to allow fluid to lift. it looks as though the lift cylinder altogether may be a replacement. The part number on the cylinder is C5NN510B. thats not the number i have in my parts book. If any one has ANY IDEA what is going on with this I'd love to hear it.

I thought of manufacturing a longer control valve link/turnbuckle to make up for the longer needed reach, and repairing other needed parts to get it going. I need only position control to work.

posted December 31, 2005 09:49               

What Dexta have you got? Sounds like you have a 2000/3000 lift from the way you describe it not a Dexta. Ford muddled things by keeping the same name on the "X" series tractors. If it is indeed a 2000/3000 the lift is still as simple but will be set differently. C5NN numbers are the '000 series.

------------------
Kind regards
Brian

posted December 31, 2005 16:09            

Could someone have fitted a 2000/3000 series lift cylinder to my dexta lift top?

Will it(can it still work)?

Will my idea of making a replacement control valve adjustment/turnbuckle make things ok? or is there another way to correct things?

Is there any chance of me busting the hydraulics, etc. due to severe misadjustment?

My brother is due to come over today with his camera. I'll try to get a pic posted. I have much to clean, etc. Until I get the control valve figured out.

many thanks, david

posted December 31, 2005 18:40               

With a C5NN number you have definitly got a 2/3000 ram cylinder. I am at a total loss here as I did not think one would fit the other as there are changes in the porting.

I think, if you say it worked, I would set it as a 2000 and not bother about changing things. I think your linkage will be all incorrect but I will compare the two and let you know further.

I cannot comment on damage until I can get some idea of the movements in the lift.

posted December 31, 2005 18:57               

I was thinking about the problem and found out the following;

The part list for the DEXTA on the site www.fordson-dexta.de gives some C5nn and C7nn etc numbers for the hydraulic parts. So it might be that your lift allready has been rebuilt once with original replacement parts.

posted January 01, 2006 05:02            

Brian, I got the pics uploaded today, see below.hope they work. if not i can email them to you.



I also removed the cylinder from the top plate and took a look at the ports. As far as i can see they all line up. There's a row of 5 ports that run parallel to the underside of the cylinder. The 2nd hole from the front of the row under the cylinder does not have a corresponding hole on the top plate, which may be how it is supposed to be. All the other holes line up and have corresponding ports, etc., that I can see.

another bit of info i found today, in my stevens ag parts catalog(stevenstractor.com), in the ford 1965&up section on models 2000-7710, in the hydraulic section, it has pictured what appears to be a near exact drawing of my lift cylinder.

i'm thinking like emiel, that someone rebuilt this using what ever they were given at the parts house.

much grateful thanks , for help sorting this out.
david

posted January 01, 2006 18:35               

The Dexta lift cylinder number was changed to C5NN477B from 957E477B.

The porting holes should line up OK, the differences are within the cylinder and should not be any problem. The external differences may mean that the linkage might not line up correctly but there should be enough movement in the turnbuckle piviots to allow for this.

So all in all I think it should work OK.

The setting is different however because of the different control valve.

Select Draft Control. This must be done first. Lift arms in the fully raised position.
Place the control lever 2" from the quadrant top stop.
Adjust the valve to be 0.144" (3.65 mm) from the control valve to the front of the control valve bush.

Select Position Control. Set the lift arms at their lowest point.
Quadrant lever to lowest point in the quadrant.
Set control valve, using position control adjuster rod and nut,to set the valve front face 0.200" (5.08 mm) from the front face of the lift cylinder.

posted January 01, 2006 20:27            

in my manual it says to adjust the draft by turning the control valve turnbuckle that touches the control valve. Am I correct in my understanding?
{Select Draft Control. This must be done first. Lift arms in the fully raised position.
Place the control lever 2" from the quadrant top stop.
Adjust the valve to be 0.144" (3.65 mm) from the control valve to the front of the control valve bush.}

For the position control I use the spring covered bolt that pushes against the control lever from the SELECTOR ASSY. Am I correct in this understanding?

Also.
When you say the - 'valve front face' and 'front face of the lift cylinder'. I am confused, what are you refering to?
{Select Position Control. Set the lift arms at their lowest point.
Quadrant lever to lowest point in the quadrant.
Set control valve, using position control adjuster rod and nut,to set the valve front face 0.200" (5.08 mm) from the front face of the lift cylinder.}

---In other words what I'm trying to ask is... Do I use the same procedure outlined in the manual, just with different placements of touch control lever and lift arms, and new clearance measurements for the control valve that you have provided?

this is going to help very much. thanks, david

ps- anonther problem I just realized... In draft settings, if I am to adjust the turnbuckle that touches the control valve to set the valve land .144" from face of bushing, I can't, because yesterday I loosened the locknut on it and its already extended as far as it can go. Thats why I came up with the idea of making a longer bolt to fit into the turnbuckle. I'm thinking the 000 series had more length on the adj bolt or a differnetly shaped control lever, etc. How would you suggest I tackle this problem?
thanks, david

[This message has been edited by David (edited January 01, 2006).]

posted January 02, 2006 10:40               

You are now working from the front of the valve to get the settings not the rear and you are measuring the distances up into the valve bushing from the outer surface of the ram cylinder. This may affect the need to lengthen the turnbuckle. I am afraid that you cannot use the settings in the manual as these are for the Dexta. The settings I have given you are for the 2000 hydraulic system which is basically what you have.

There were also changes to the valve itself which affected its position in the bushing. I have given you the basic setting and would really need to see a picture of the end of the valve in the bush. (Your site pictures have not appeared. Mail them to me please).

I can find no measurements for the linkage as you would need to have both side by side to compare. I can probably do this when my colleagues at the breakers return to work after the holidays.

posted January 02, 2006 15:07            

and will also email you the picss.

posted January 02, 2006 18:37               

The measurements are all taken drom behind the plate in picture 1 so you will have to remove the baffle and metal plate before taking them.

I still need to see the end of the valve. Some had a plug and therefore the settings have to be modified to allow for this.

posted January 03, 2006 01:34            

still scrubbing etc.

until I get back with the control valve picture, can anyone tell me if the hydraulic pump has to be pulled out the side in order to get the intake filter off?

posted January 05, 2006 19:01               

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:
"i'm thinking like emiel, that someone rebuilt this using what ever they were given at the parts house."

---

Is it the same size on this one, in comparsion to the original one?

posted January 09, 2006 18:19            

I got the lift together, was unable to get settings to come out correctly, they were close. Apparently something is not completely compatible(perhaps worn out). So I made sure adjustments made to position control were set right and sacrificed accurate setting of the draft(I have no use for draft). On operation, the lift started to raise at about 1/2 way up on the control lever.(it use to start 1 inch from the top) As lever advanced the arms would lift about an inch then stop, then bump up another inch then stop, totaling only about 3 inches of lift by the time lever was at the top of quadrant. I decided to engage the selector into draft mode to see what happened. With quadrant control lever down, as I was slowly engaging the draft selector, the arms started to lift so I held in that position and the lift arms raised smoothly all the way up. I released and the arms dropped. That made me feel alot better, because I think that proves it will lift once settings get ironed out, because pushing the draft selector pushes hard on the control valve lever when engaging.

After that however, pushing on the selector lever would not provide the same results. Nothing would happen. The quad lever in position control would still get the 1 inch increments, etc as described above.

I thought unload valve was/is sticking. I pulled top off again. Unload valve is stuck, all the way against front of bushing. Usually I could slide it back with a nail very easily. It won't move. I pulled the unload valve plug and have removed the valve, and will polish again, relube, and test again. While I have the top off again, any suggestions as to why hydraulics/unload valve are acting this way. And do you have any suggestions on what to do next/now?

posted January 10, 2006 08:49               

The unload valve should be a smooth fit in its bush. It should not be loose as oil could cause it to "cock" to one side and stick. The valve can also be damaged if it, and the plug, has been removed by driving them out from the rear. (This could have been done before you got the tractor) Check for any burring or scoring on the valve stem.

If it has an "O" ring rather than a piston ring, the wrong "O" ring can cause the valve to stick. The correct ring from Fords was always identified by a white spot and hardly protruded from the groove at all.

The setting problem can be sorted by the well tried "suck it and see" method. It is obviouse that the linkage is not quite right. If you have position control set correctly, the lift should start lifting within 1" from the bottom stop. So the valve is not travelling far enough. If you went by the settings I gave you, you will have to modify them slightly by reducing the distance the valve face is below the front surface of the cylinder. Try reducing this measurement to .03" below the front surface.

You mention feeding the draft/position selector in slowly and that the lift works when you do this. There are only two positions. Draft and Position. The lift must be in one or the other not in between.

In Position, the lift should come up from the bottom stop in steps. With the lift off you can see this work. Move the lift lever up the quadrant and watch the valve move in. Then lift the arns manually and watch the valve move out.

In Draft, the lift will not raise until it is about 2" from the top stop. Then it will be difficult to find a neutral point. This is because in draft, the lift is controlled by the forces on the top link. The quadrant lever only sets the level of force on this link. When raise is selected, the lift will move its full travel and then cut out with the "Knock Off" pin which operates the control valve via the edge of the piston.

posted January 10, 2006 19:38            

Thanks alot,
Iunderstand what you're saying.

I have more information. After I repolished the unload valve to a brilliant shine with metal polish, I decided to polish the inside of the bushing. With a small piece of rag I did so but when I stuck my pinky finger in there to polish I felt something. On closer inspection with my flashlight I can see a gouge in the bushing maybe 2mm long with a bump of metal on the end of it like something(a srewdriver perhaps) was stuck in there. You can see on top of the bump of metal at the end of the gouge, where it is shiny where the clip ring(mine has no oring)has been rubbing on it. When well lubed it does encounter "some" resistance when moved within the bushing.

Now what?

posted January 11, 2006 08:29               

The bushes can be replaced but I would advise they are fitted by a Ford dealer as they have to be positioned exactly right. The bush does have a couple of notches right at the end that can feel a bit rough. The slight dome on the head of the valve strikes the plug and stops the valve itself getting into that area. As long as the valve moves freely in the rear part of the bush you should be OK.

posted January 11, 2006 17:51            

N/H has priced the bushing with valve at $285 without labor or shipping. Not a logical choice for me. I think I will look for another lift cylinder with a good unload valve at the salvage yard. There are no dextas around here in salvage, but there are 2000's.

The gouge is in the part of the bushing where the ring of the valve slides.

Everything is polished up, I will reassemble to test and see before I head to the salvage yard.

posted January 12, 2006 02:32            

The only problem now is that the arms will only raise 4 inches(measured from bottom of lift arm fork to top of rear axle). Which is about what they raised before I opened it up.
Which I guess about 1/3 of what they should do.

Any suggestions as to how to increase? The arms stop raising when the quadrant lever gets about 2/3 up the quadrant.

Still thinking about calling the salvage, I know where there is a scrap dexta in another state and hoping to swap the guy a dexta lift cylinder for a ford 2000 lift cylinder and pay a little for his trouble(hopefully). I'm just scared I get something worse than I already have, not being able to see it beforehand.

posted January 12, 2006 08:38               

This means that your linkage is faulty. With the lift off and in position control, you should have been able to see the valve/cam roller linkage working over the full travel. Move the lever a little, move the arms a litle and watch the valve come back to neutral.

From what you say, the quadrant lever affect on the spring is being cancelled by the roller linkage on the cam far too early.

Have you tried the lift in draft control?

Your cylinder would have a fair value as it will fit 2000 and 3000 tractors which are pretty common over there.

posted January 12, 2006 15:46            

I watched as you said with the cover off, the action of the follower pin as I simulated the control valve moving in by action of the touch lever, the arms raising, then the cam action aloowing the control valve to come back into neutral. It all looked operational.

An idea? If the CAM is worn down would this cause these symptoms? The pin has been renewed. I'm thinking that it may be worn because when reassembling the parts after cleaning and renewing the cam roller pin I thought the cam on the lift arm shaft looked funny. The part where the cam roller pin starts out on the cam was flatand about a 1/4 inch wide and pretty much squared off. But as you followed along the cam as what happens when the lift raises the cam got all bumpy very pitted rusty and not square at all, almost more 'pointed' than flat. And pointed on the side closest to the lift arm. Also since the linkage "is" pretty worn could there be enough play side to side that the cam roller pin is sliding "off" the cam when it gets on that end? I did not look to see if that was happening, I didn't pay attention that close.

What do you think? If this was it, it would save me an awful lot of trouble and time. Could I weld a small bead and grind smooth to fix. Or, I am sure a new lift arm would be cheaper than a cylinder. I could try a jb weld "test" fix to see if it works, then if it does pull it apart, grind off the jb weld, then weld permanent.

Could this be it? How can I know if theres enough wear on the cam to affect the lift?

posted January 12, 2006 19:46               

First Draft control. You have to push the link not pull, an implement piviots around the lower links when in work and creates a pressure on the top link. The further down the quadrant you put the control lever, the harder you have to push.

I bring the lever just to the point where the arms start to go down with me standing on them, then apply pressure with a bar and push on the top link piviot. This works well.

If the cam is badly worn I would try the JB weld method. You have nothing to loose really.

I would also inquire the price of the lift at your S/H yard. The only real things that could be wrong with it are pin wear,seals and "O" rings. From what you say your existing lift has been "worked on" and a lot of problems seem to have been built into it.

posted January 16, 2006 03:53            

I have since taken it back off, knocked off the jb, and welded back up to about that height. Grinded, and finished off with a smooth file. Hopefully will get it all reassembled, and back on for final fitting etc. The adjustments still don't come to specs, but they come much closer now. Hopefully things will be operational and strong when I'm back together with it.

As soon as I get the pics associated with this crazy setup uploaded to my new lycos site, I will edit them into this topic for future access to anyone else who may have a pieced together dexta.

Many thanks to Brian for your many wise words, and all who helped figure this out.