run out of luck

henk · Post by **henk** » Fri May 14, 2010 1:40 pm

Today I have change the diaphragm to see if the strange idling curve would be gone.
When I start her up strange things happened. She would fire up but with a lot of smoke. Black grey and white. I sounds like it was running on three cylinders and there was a metal sound ticking. When I speed it up the smoke when black. She kept running. I drove her outside and let her run for a while. The ticking went less and the fourth cylinder seems to work now, but still a lot of white grey smoke and when speeding up a lot of black smoke.
I removed the valve cover. The return pipe was leaking a tiny amount of diesel at nr two but the rest seems OK.

Two weeks ago I joint an event. When she was could she was smoking more than usual but not to much. When I came back and I slow the engine down after a run on the road, she gave a back firing when I gave a lot of throttle to shift back to low. Drove her in the shed and nothing seems to be wrong.

Were to look for? Could it be a nozzle? Or is there still a leak some where on the head gasket. Engine oil seems to be OK.

I have made a new banjo bolt on the return pipe. Could this be to small so it wont let the fuel pass easy?

Any ideas please!!!!!!!!!

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Fri May 14, 2010 7:06 pm

if its running on 3, loosen off the pipe things on the fuel injector pump one at a time. If one of them doesn't make any difference, then you know its that one playing up.

henk · Post by **henk** » Sat May 15, 2010 7:46 pm

The fourth cylinder was not reacting when I turned the fuel line loose. So that must be the problem. I removed it. I want to let it cleaned with ultrasonic and tested by a company. Should I do all four of them or just this one?

Post by **Brian** » Sat May 15, 2010 8:05 pm

Henk,

It sounds like you have a fuel pump problem. A bad injector would not cause her to have a fast tick over.

Check the injector by taking it out and fitting it on the pipe so you can see if it sprays correctly. Do not get the spray onto your bare skin whilst doing this as it will penetrate the skin and cause very serious problems.

If the injector does not work, try it on another pipe. This will prove the injector and point to the fuel pump itself.

Take the side plate off the pump and check that you do not have a broken plunger spring on that cylinder.

Pascal · Post by **Pascal** » Sat May 15, 2010 9:38 pm

Hi Henk,

I don't really know how serious your problem is, but if I read Brian's reaction, it's pretty serious.

If you want to borrow the fuel pump of my Super during the summer, just let me know.

henk · Post by **henk** » Sat May 15, 2010 10:09 pm

Pascal,

Thanks for the offer. I think the timing between your and mine would be different.

Brian,

While removing the injector, I notice some small peaces of paint on the surface from the connection between fuel line and injector. So maybe it's dirt that came in during the head gasket repair. Before that I had no problems. I did not notice the ticking when I started her up this evening.
I have a testing devise from Dies, but there seems something wrong with the connection line.
If I understand correctly I will have to test it by running the engine.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Sat May 15, 2010 10:51 pm

Henk,
when you unplugged number 4 was a steady stream of diesel coming out of the pump ? It should do. You could always try swapping the injectors over if you suspect its that.

henk · Post by **henk** » Sun May 16, 2010 11:32 am

There was diesel coming out under pressure.

henk · Post by **henk** » Sun May 16, 2010 2:02 pm

I have put nr 4 injector on the nr 4 fuel line outside the engine. Started and diesel was coming out of the injector.
Then I changed nr 4 with nr 2. Put everything back in the engine and started. Nr 2 was reacting when I loosened the nut on the fuel line. Nr 4 was not reacting, as before the change over. Still a lot of smoke.
So nr 4 injector should be OK. Nr4 fuel line from pump is giving fuel so would be OK.
Now I'm puzzled. Could it be the valve setting on nr 4 that changed after I run it hot. Or could it be a head gasket leak on nr 4.

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Sun May 16, 2010 8:56 pm

Drill and tap a spark plug threaded hole in the center of a small steel plate that will go over the injector hole. Drill mounting holes so that it will bolt down with the injector retaining bolts and cover the injector hole. With the help of a properly sized O-ring as a gasket, you can then use a standard compression tester to check cylinder compression. It sounds as if that one cylinder has a problem. Take 3 readings, then put a couple of tablespoons of engine oil into the cylinder and take 3 more. Average the two sets of readings and compare them to readings in the other cylinders. If they are the same, you have injector problems; if the cylinder pressure stays the same and is low compared to the others, you have a valve or piston problem. If it is significantly higher with the oil in the cylinder, the rings are probably stuck or worn. I hope this helps.

Dandy Dave · Post by **Dandy Dave** » Mon May 17, 2010 12:39 pm

I think your next move should be to pull the valve cover and see that the valves are working and are adjusted properly on number 4 Cylinder. If that fails then look in the radiator for bubbles comming up in the coolant. If so, then it is the head gasket. If these steps fail, then I would opt for Kims advice and do a compression test. The only othe possibility is the injection pump. I have seen injection pumps with broken plunger springs in the past that give this result also on different equipment. Dandy Dave!

henk · Post by **henk** » Mon May 17, 2010 9:37 pm

Did just do it this evening. The settings of nr 4 valves were correct.
Removed the side cover of the pump while running and everything was running and reacting nice.
It starts well and reacts to the throttle as it should.
So it puzzles me more.

Tomorrow my injectors will be tested and I hope to have a compression meter so I can check that to.
Did not look for bubbles yet.

henk · Post by **henk** » Tue May 18, 2010 8:58 pm

Did some testing this evening.

First I checked if the air hose from the air filter was dry. There was no oil in it. So it's not sucking oil up from the filter.

Tested the compression of each cylinder. They are between 22 and 24 bar. Nr 4 is the highest, Nr 1 the lowest.

Tested compression leak with a tester. Nr 1 70%, Nr 2 100%, Nr 3 55%, Nr 4 90%.
Most of the leakage was through the old copper washer that was on the injectors.
No air bubbles in the cooling system.

The injectors itself were tested today and were in good order. About 165 bar and were adjusted to 185 bar.

Can't think of anything more to check.

Any ideas?

Now I have a new problem. One of the copper washer is stuck on the bottom of the injector hole.
How can I get it out????????

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Tue May 18, 2010 11:17 pm

You could always stick the injector back in with a little something sticky on it to pick up the washer. Normally they just come out with the injectors.

When does she fire on 3 ? When she is cold and just started ? Or all the time ? Our ford tractor was starting on 3 then going onto 4 after a few mins. Then if we revved it harder it would go on 3 again sometimes, idle her, back on 4. So having the injector pump done. Maybe it's that ..

The colour of the smoke can give you an inditcation of what's gone wrong.

Post by **Brian** » Wed May 19, 2010 6:56 am

Henk,

When did the problems start? When I was with you last year she ran nicely.

Did they start after you did the front plate gasket? Or was this something that has always been there in the background?

Do Ann and I need a long weekend in Middleburg?

(The answer to that is always...... YES).

henk · Post by **henk** » Wed May 19, 2010 7:24 am

After I have done the mounting plate, I did the head gasket. It ran well after that exept a bit more smoke when she was cold.

I used one day on a event. It ran well. When I came back, I drove on 3 high idle and was shifting back with throttle in between. Than she gave a loud bang. Back firing. It run well after that and I put her in the shed.

The next time I started it ran on 3 cylinders and was ticking at the point the 4th cylinder should of had ignition. (hearing from an non expert.). Gave a lot of grey white smoke and when throttle a lot of black smoke. After a while the 4th cyl was coming on to.

When I started later it ran on all cylinders, but still smoking.

Points that are still unsure:

I changed engine oil and filter. the filter was not correct. I have made a change so it would work correct. Don't know if I did the right thing. Can't explain well now, i have no pictures at work. But the old filter was open on one side. I have made a washer to close it on the end. Oil pressure was OK after that.
http://www.fordsontractorpages.nl/phpbb ... oil+filter

Diesel return was leaking on two places, so diesel came in the engine oil.

Could the pump setting have change in between? I have removed the pump for the oil seal repair. But it ran well after that.

Brian,

It may cost you a whole week. Repairing would not be the problem, but finding the problem

I now ran out of options

henk · Post by **henk** » Wed May 19, 2010 8:26 am

Another issue.
Could the seals from the valves be leaking so that oil is going into the cylinder through the valve?

henk · Post by **henk** » Wed May 19, 2010 7:45 pm

The copper washer is out.

The pump timing was before and still is 23 dgr.

Post by **Brian** » Thu May 20, 2010 11:38 am

Henk,

You have done everything correctly to diagnose your problem. I wondered if you had the valve timing out when you put the gears back on but to run correctly then give problems points to something else.

Diesel in the oil could give you a problem but, with this, you would not really be able to control the engine on the throttle or stop.

I really do suspect pump. If you look back in the posts, someone else was complaining about similar problems. We went through all the causes, like you, and eventually it came down to pump.

I do not have my spare pump in my hands at the moment, but as soon as I do, I will get it over to you to try.

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Thu May 20, 2010 3:12 pm

This might be a long shot but try putting a high quality penetrating oil on the valve stems to get it down inside the guides on #4 and soften whatever deposits might be there. I am thinking that perhaps some carbon is acting like a micro wedge that is keeping the valves from closing fully when it's running but slowly allows the valve to close as it cools down. it certainly is a perplexing problem and I wish you the best of luck.

henk · Post by **henk** » Thu May 20, 2010 5:16 pm

According to the settings list for the pump, mine has to be set on 26 dgr. It's a mark I.
Could this be something?.

You could be right Brian. (must be, your always right). I can use Pascal his pump or ask Dies if he has a spare one.

I will do the leakage again and make sure it won't leak now. Than I put the injectors back from1,2,3. and let her run. Than put 4 in place and let her run a long time to see if it gets better when hot.

henk · Post by **henk** » Thu May 20, 2010 7:38 pm

On the inside of the cylinder 1 at the injector hole there's some dirt (carbon?) The injector is going in difficult. When I want to remove this stuff it will fall into the cylinder. Does this do any harm?

Made a new leakage test with a good seal and all were 100%.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Thu May 20, 2010 8:03 pm

it's probably your fuel injection pump

Pascal · Post by **Pascal** » Fri May 21, 2010 5:53 am

Hi Henk,

If you need my fuel pump, just give me a call.
Than I will bolt mine off and hand it over to you.
I truly hope you will solve your problem soon, so you can enjoy driving your beautiful tractor again.

henk · Post by **henk** » Fri May 21, 2010 4:29 pm

I think I found it.

I have put the injectors back and started her without the oil bath filter. She was smoking like i use to. After a while it became less. I drove the major out of the shed and let it run for a while. Most of the smoke disappeared. All tough I can't find any oil in the filter hose I think it must be oil that was coming in from the filter.
I have changed this oil earlier and I doubted if it was to high level. She ran about 8 or 10 hours before the problem started.
I have check the max at the filter and let some oil out.
She is cooling down now and I will start her up again this evening.

We have a road run tomorrow, so I hope I can join this.
Let you know how it went.