dbl clutch finger adjustment

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1su9pm6aj4
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dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by 1su9pm6aj4 »

Hello all,
Making progress on my '64 major. Almost ready to join engine to trans. Got the clutch assembled last night and flywheel bolted up, clutch attached, now a question. Does clutch finger adjustment mean anything other than turning the special adjusting bolts on the ends of the 2 sets of fingers? From past posts it seems to be something different but not sure. If the fingers can be adjusted, I do not see how since they are held by pins in a fixed place. but maybe someone could enlighten me. I was able to turn an alignment pilot tool on a wood lathe for alignment of the clutch discs, so I am ready to go except for this question.

Thanks all Kerry

Dandy Dave
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by Dandy Dave »

Originally there was a tool to get the height correct, which is importiant. The PTO disk needs to open first, and then the gear drive clutch. I did not have a tool to do the clutch in my tractor years ago, so I used a dial indicator and magnetic base to get the height equal first on one set, and then the other three. I think someone on here has the dimensions for the tool which would make the job easier. Dandy Dave!
Have a Fordsonful day Folks!

1960 Fordson Power Major

BearCreek Majors
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by BearCreek Majors »

Adjusting the finger bolts with a dial indicator has been working fine for me. The drive fingers and the PTO fingers should be .620”/16mm apart, put a little down pressure on them to take the slack out while checking them. When done I try to have the bolts somewhere in the middle of their adjustment. Don’t forget the crankshaft end play, every time I turn it I pry out on the flywheel a little with a screwdriver to ensure the crank is tight against the thrust bearing. I’ve found on “well used” clutches you’ll probably never get them exact, if you can get them all within a few thousands you are a pro!

Pat

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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by 1su9pm6aj4 »

Thanks Pat,

the distance between the fingers is very important, Saturday is hopefully the day I get the fingers adjusted and the engine bolted on to the tranny, and the thing will start resembling a tractor again. Front end next, worried about the Agriline spindles not being quite up to original measurements as I will have to buy one for sure and maybe two if the bushing kit doesn't,t take out the slop. Will be sending front axel to powder coating soon, hope to get that system fixed and installed next, then the injector pump needs testing.
Thanks again for the help all

Kerry

1su9pm6aj4
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by 1su9pm6aj4 »

Hey there all,

Got both sets of clutch fingers adjusted the best I could with a dial indicator and straight edge, strapped engine to my engine lift in a balanced spot, rolled her over to tranny/rear end and prayed my makeshift alignment tool for clutch disks did the job. She gave me some trouble the last bit but I was able to catch a few threads with a few bolts and started pulling the two chucks of metal together without any major catches. What a relief! Afterward I snugged up the rest of the bolts and had to try the clutch to see if everything worked. To my delight and surprise, It did. The trans section released in the right spot after I adjusted the pedal to about 1 inch of free play, then I could feel the P T O clutch release a little over halfway down.I am a happy camper! Did not find the torque ratings of the engine/trans bolts but have them at about 20 right now. Next priority is the front end getting powder coated, then fit with new shims and steering bearings so I can attach to front of tractor. Also need to install newly rebuilt head but am not sure as to using my copper head gasket or the standard head gasket that came with the kit. Have read pros and cons on copper. The engine block was milled down as was the head so they should be straight. Any opinions from you all would be appreciated.
What abut priming the engine with oil prior to start up? Is it possible? I did inject oil into the oil pump but most of it came out as I was turning the engine over a few times while installing the oil pan. actually I am not close to that yet, I still have the injection pump to get tested and lots of other parts to install. Anyway, I will be back with more questions I am sure. But for now I will keep on working on this old relic trying to make her look new again and get her running like in 1964. Kerry

Timeee
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by Timeee »

Dear Kerry

With regard to "priming" the engine lubrication system, I have always left out the injectors (or spark plugs on a SI engine) and turned the engine over on the starter motor until oil pressure is registered on the pressure gauge. Do it in 30 second bursts to rest the starter motor, although with little compression, it will not be worked too hard.

My old instructor, Mr Lake (brown trilby hat, white dust coat, clean polished boots, collar, tie and waistcoat) used to say that you should initially "run in" a rebuilt engine by turning it over on the starter (in bursts) until the batteries were flat. Check that oil is getting to everywhere it should be getting to and that it isn't going where it shouldn't. It also gives a chance for any leaks to be identified that are seeping out, rather than gushing out at engine idle speed. He then said, charge the batteries, fit injectors and bleed the fuel system and it should fire up with plenty of oil in the right places at the right pressure.

Perhaps others may have alternative views.

Tim E

1su9pm6aj4
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by 1su9pm6aj4 »

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the great suggestion, never would have thought of that for getting the engine all oiled and ready to go. Do you or anyone have any thoughts on copper vs regular head gasket? I am getting close to bolting the head on. also had a previous question about how many copper washers are inside an injector. I know there is one that goes between the face of the injector and the head, I took my injectors apart so long ago and think I lost or misplaced some washers but not really sure. The workshop manual says nothing about them that I have found. Anyone have a source for those types of copper washers? I ordered the 4 rubber plugs that interface the injector lines into the head and with them came 4 small copper doughnut washers that I assume go into the injectors but I don't know where or if they really do fit inside the injectors. Lastly, and with the idea of trying to save some money, the previous owner said this tractor worked before the engine hydro locked, so I assume the injector pump is still good even though its been sitting for 5 years now. Has anyone ever tried to home test one of these? maybe some simple test just to see if pressure is adequate at all 4 lines. appreciate any and all responses!

regards

Kerry

Timeee
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by Timeee »

Dear Kerry
I have no particular preference for type of cyl head gasket. I never get them from any supplier like Agriline. I get mine from the engine remanufacturer/machine shop where I have had the head, or engine work done that I cannot do myself eg; C'shaft regrinding, head skim etc. This way you get the experience and knowledge of the machine shop and they know if you come back with a problem, that you have fitted quality parts to their recommendation.

One thing I do when fitting a cyl head gasket of whatever material, is to smear Rhodorseal 5661 (smelly, white, silicon stuff) around the water gallery holes on the head gasket, prior to fitting the head. You have to be quite prompt in fitting and tightening down the head, as it goes "off" quite quickly (say 15 mins). I have never had problems with head gasket leaks using Rhodorseal (unless serial misuse by the owner years later).

I think there are 2 copper washers INSIDE an injector, but hopefully you have not totally dismantled yours. There is one copper washer per injector (Part No E16-CL-9 Washer Injector Sealing) which fits over the end of the injector to seal it in the injector aperture in the head. I cannot remember whether they are plain or crushable, but go to a Diesel Injection specialist and they will probably throw 4 at you. If the tractor hasn't run for a while and condition is unknown, it is well worth having your injectors serviced by said Diesel Specialist. If you cannot find one, ask at your engine machine shop, where they should be able to recommend a good candidate.

Your last question is a tricky one, as there are so many unknowns concerning the life and storage of your Fuel Injection Pump (FIP). If it was stored with water contaminated fuel in it, in cold, damp conditions, you could be in trouble. The FIPs on these Majors go on delivering fuel despite suffering the abuse of poor servicing, long periods of inactivity and dubious fuel cleanliness, but there is only so much they can take. To conduct a rough check, the only way I would suggest is to fit the FIP to the engine and the fuel supply system and connect it up to the injectors, with them hanging loose (ie not fitted in the head) on their pipes. possibly supported with a cable tie or four. Bleed the fuel system, place large pieces of cardboard in front of each injector nozzle and turn the engine over on the starter. You should be able to see what (or if) spray pattern you are getting out of each injector. Be very careful of the injector nozzles as diesel fuel will (hopefully) be coming out at very high pressure. Having diesel fuel injected into your thumb, or finger is as painful as arc-eye, so wear suitable eye and hand protection. You need to know that your injectors are good to do this test.
I would say that your Diesel Specialist would be a good bet (cash permitting) to overhaul and check calibration of your FIP, but hopefully you may be able to assess the likelihood of your FIP working using the above method. Good luck. Regards Tim E

1su9pm6aj4
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by 1su9pm6aj4 »

Tim,

Thanks for all the good info, I am thankful for this board, I have learned lots and am confident this tractor will be running soon. Just a side note on my injection pump and its sitting for at least 8 years now. I live in central Oregon which is high desert country, very dry here. We are at 3200 ft and the Cascade mountains just to the west of us take up most of the moisture that rolls in off of the pacific ocean. 3 of those 8 years the tractor was not running and sitting on the wet or west side of the mountains, but it was not dismantled and was inside a barn. So I will cross my fingers when I test the F I P while I get oil to all the engine parts at the same time cranking her over. I thought I would just hook up the injection tubes less the injectors for the first test, kind of clear out the pump and get it oiled up without it being under pressure. If I don't get an equal amount of fuel in each collection bottle, I won't bother with hooking up the injectors,it will be off to the shop. The injector tips I bought new, from Agriline, and my injector kit came with those doughnut copper washers. If the inside diameter of the washers fit the head hole size then they must be the right ones for that spot. I will check them out today. I will go with the copper head gasket using the Rhodorseal like you suggested and remember to get it done quickly. Just seems an'" all metal" gasket in soft copper (baring leaks) might be a better choice. Got the entire front end (Less wheels and hubs) dropped off at the powder coat shop yesterday, he gave me a super good price for sandblasting and painting all the parts except the power steering unit which I will paint myself. Years ago when I had the gas tank powder coated, the shop nor I had any idea the tank was soldered from the factory. In the 400 degree oven after painting the solder melted at the seems. Bummer, but a local radiator shop (using a ton of solder) fixed and tested it. I know rubber seals reside inside a hydraulic power steering unit, so I will save it from ignorance this time. Just a little side note on this tractor, When I picked it up, on both sides of the hood or bonnet were decals. They read " Ford 5000" although the front badge read super major. Cannot leave without another question. With the bushing kit for the front end steering tubes I am getting from Agriline, I am wondering if it will take up all the slack that years of ware have dealt the spindle posts. If not, could a Speedy Sleeve be an answer rather than buying new spindles. I read somewhere on this forum that Agrilines new spindles have to be fixed or machined somewhat to get them to fit properly. The upper portion of my spindles do have step marks or ware lines on them maybe 20 ml deep. Guess with a Speedy Sleeve these marks might have to be machined off. Have never used one before. Any thoughts on this?

Regards

Kerry Borsch

Timeee
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by Timeee »

Dear Kerry

The two spindle bushes per side normally require reaming to ensure a satisfactory fit to your worn spindles. I seem to remember hiring a suitable adjustable reamer from a tool hire place, when I did my Fordson. I think the difference between the upper and lower bushes is to do with the grease grooves in each, best to check the manual to be sure which one goes where.

I thought Speedi Sleeves were only used to take up wear between a moving surface (a rotating shaft or pulley) and its oil/lubricant seal, not between a steel moving surface and a bushing surface. I could be wrong, I have only used them to stop oil leaking out through a seal.

Good luck! Tim E

Dandy Dave
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by Dandy Dave »

The right reamer is a letter K expandable type. I was out in Bonanza, Oregon last summer. I would be willing to bet your pumps are not rusted with the weather you generally have out there. Dandy Dave!
Have a Fordsonful day Folks!

1960 Fordson Power Major

1su9pm6aj4
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by 1su9pm6aj4 »

Ahh, good news about the steering bushings needing reaming to fit my worn spindles. Really did not want to buy new ones and now won't have to. Also hope Dave's guess about the pump being O K becomes a fact when I test her. In the meantime I will look for a K expandable reamer on the internet. Hey Dave never heard of Bonanza Oregon will look it up. If you travel out there again and if its anywhere close to Sisters OR and the mood hits you, would love to have you stop by and check out our town and its rare Super Major Tractor. Have only seen one other, it was fitted with a bucket and backhoe. It was in a sad state, degrading/rusting by the side of the road close by the main highway about 150 miles from here. Might still be there for all I know, its been 2 years since I saw it last. Today I got my fuel pump in place, also a few engine plugs installed, one behind the fuel pump (not sure what its for) one above the oil pressure switch, a water petcock, a small screw that plugs a hole in the Injection pump boss (no clue on reason for that one). Also a plug that has to do with the fuel return line, it screws into the top end of the head nearest the steering wheel and goes under the valve cover. would have attempted the head install today/tonight if It was not for the super bowl. What a blowout game, 2nd widest point margin in history. and the same team Denver Broncos were the looser also in the 1st widest point spread loss in a super bowl.
I need to get the generator, power steering pump, starter and tool box painted so I can get them mounted. An automotive paint outfit will be mixing up the color to match the powder coat color. Problems with very low temps this time of year so will have to get things all ready to spray and wait for a 50 degree day. Thanks again guys for your time in answering my questions on this forum, no book or utube post beats talking with people who know the ropes.

regards
Kerry

BearCreek Majors
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by BearCreek Majors »

Don’t forget those injectors need the correct cracking pressure set on them, you will probably need to take them to a shop that has a pump to get them set.
Best play of the game…..getting to see Sherman cry like a little girl!

Pat

1su9pm6aj4
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by 1su9pm6aj4 »

Will do Pat. Now I know the correct term and won,t sound like a dunce when speaking with the shop personnel. Thanks!

BearCreek Majors
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by BearCreek Majors »

The manual recommends 2720-2794 psi, have the guys show you what happens when they hold a open flame to it when it cracks, quite impressive what atomization can do.

Pat

1su9pm6aj4
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by 1su9pm6aj4 »

Hello Pat,

Lots of pressure coming out those tips. Unfortunately the injector shop is on the other side of the mountains so I will miss the test. Maybe if I get the time I might look at rigging up an extra fuel line with a T fitting and a pressure gage installed. Just change the line 4 times and get a reading. Don't need other 3 lines hooked up while I test each one.

Regards
Kerry

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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by super6954 »

Hi Kerry
if your spindles have any undercut ware on them from the original shaft size you will have to get them built up and machined or buy new ones to do the job properly :wink: . The top splined part will be standard diameter and so will the part between where the 2 old bushings fit. you can't ream new bushes and leave them small enough to take the slack out from the shaft ware, then get the original unworn shaft diameter to slide into the new bushes :cry: .
Hope this makes sense, probably will when you look at the parts and what has to happen when putting it together, if it doesn't right now :) .
oh by the way, some repro spindles aren't quite right and if you put original Major steering arms on, the front wheel tracking is a mile out of line :cry: , Been a few post on that here before, and found this with a tractor in my shop also, I had to heat and bend the arms to re set the tracking correctly :!: .
Regards Robert
A Fordson is for life not just for Christmas !.

1su9pm6aj4
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by 1su9pm6aj4 »

Thanks for the info Robert. Darn, and things were going so well! I,ll try to find a machine shop that can do the job. It will take a few welding rods I'll bet. The tractor had front weights when I bought it, bet that did not help. Just ordered parts from agriline last night, powder coat should be ready next week, picking up paint this week for parts that do not receive powder coating. I've lost count of money spent and know I won't recover half of it. At least someone in the future will hopefully enjoy it, without all the work.

Thanks again K

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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by Dandy Dave »

Money? Who's counting when you are having a good time. Keep it, run it, enjoy it, and you will not regret what you have spent. Sell it and you will regret it for the rest of your life... Dandy Dave!
Have a Fordsonful day Folks!

1960 Fordson Power Major

1su9pm6aj4
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by 1su9pm6aj4 »

Ya know Dave I think you might be right on that! I just got a call from the powder coater and he said everything turned out perfect, the paint shop called an hour after the powder coater and said the paint is ready, and yesterday the parts I ordered from Agriline showed up, nothing missing. Now I just need the snow to stop coming down (35 inches from Tuesday to today, Friday) so I can work without my hands freezing and I will be smiling big looking forward to the next challenge (spindles machined) of restoration. One small question , What is the torque for the tranny to engine bolts? I snugged them up at 20 lbs for now.
Thanks all, I doubt I would have gotton a second wind for this project unless for this forum and all your knowledge and kind help. I had given up by last summer cosigned to sell it off/ part it out. Then I started thinking that I could put a few more parts back together to make a better sale. I started by fixing an oil leak at the steering box, then I thought I needed to get the P T O shaft out of the way and got that installed after putting the hydro pump in. The biggie was the engine and getting the internals in place, that is where I started asking you all questions and with that help, and the front plate buttoned up and the clutch put together and installed I knew I was not going to sell her, I have to see her run again, and work again. So when I get my 13 year old Nephew to help me with Photobucket, I will post some pics of the project. Thanks again

Kerry

Dandy Dave
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by Dandy Dave »

Check the bolt size and refer to a Bolt torque chart. I believe many of the general bolts that hold our Fordsons together are grade 5. Some, like the clutch plate bolts, Rod, and Main bearing bolts, ect, should be grade 8. Here's a good place to look torque up...

http://www.portlandbolt.com/technicalin ... chart.html
Have a Fordsonful day Folks!

1960 Fordson Power Major

1su9pm6aj4
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Re: dbl clutch finger adjustment

Post by 1su9pm6aj4 »

Thanks for the info Dave. Just read the thread about cross leaking from tranny to rear end. Don't know if mine will do that but now would be the time to change the seals, if I knew it did . I guess I could fill the tranny up with oil and Since the rear end is still without a top cover I could just watch for oil to leak through. Time to check oil type and amount and fill her up!

Regards
Kerry

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