shaft driving circular saw

[oehrick]

I hope this is OK here rather than the implements pages, if not a newbies apologies and perhaps an admin can move it over, I'm looking to the collective wisdom of the forum for a thumbs up or down on an idea.

One of the main duties of our old gal has been belt driving an ancient Reynolds circular saw bench cutting firewood, (ex one of the Wymondham brush factories and designed for ripping rather than cross cuttting). The pulley on the bench has always been far too small (dictated by table top to shaft centre) so with excess tension applied for grip, belt life has been short, in fact the belt tension was only sustainable as the bench was bolted to two sleepers which have been buried now for 40 years plus, nonetheless my late dad sawed his way through tons of timber over the last half century.

I need to make the bench transportable, have figured out a way to mount and pick it up on the 3 point lift without (hopefully) shaking the castings to bits but if I am to use it as a 'drop and saw' unit then belt drive is no longer viable as it will simply walk up the belt and when tensioned.

Thought about running from the PTO while on the 3PL but would need a step up in revs and its too close to handle larger timber never mind all the dust.

Current idea is to use something like a 6 ft lorry prop shaft or similar with a decent length of spline or splines and drive from tractor pulley boss to saw shaft, with the idea of dropping the bench, run tractor up in parallel, but not in line, couple up shaft either end (diagonally between pulley and saw) and then move the tractor pulley in line so the spline joints shorten enough so the shaft can't drift out endways (can't figure how to paste a pic in and my ascii art is lousy)

Lots of little practical details as usual, like assuming I can physically chuck the pulley to drill and tap for a coupling, likewise the saw shaft for a new keyway and how to hook up single handedly etc.

Hope thats understandable, I've not seen this sort of drive from the pulley before, has anyone tried this type of drive on a bench and have any comments or warnings to offer ??

[brockwood]

2 points you dont want a solid drive and the need to step up the speed some thing iv seen is to drive with an ordinary ag pto shaft to a car wheel hub to which is attached an ag pto stub shaft which are readily available put a wheel and tire on it fixed against your pulley this gives an overdrive and you can very the grip with tire inflation pressure b

[AdrianNPMajor]

I built this bench about twenty years ago. I found a piece of steel plate, had a slot milled in it, had it drilled and tapped to take plumber blocks, etc. Then it was a case of welding on the three point linkage frame. To get the gearing right I used a V belt flywheel from, I believe, a Ransomes plough. It's got four grooves but I only used two belts and I tensioned them just so that the belts slip if a bit of wood gets nipped. This was all designed on a fag packet, so it shouldn't work, but it does beautifully.
Your bench is cast iron so you'll have different issues to deal with, but maybe these photos will help your thinking. I have been everywhere with this bench - the tractor takes the bench to the wood, which is very useful, especially when you're working in the field. I even remove the blade, screw on a piece of ply to the table top and use it as a mobile work bench. I have rebuilt a couple of Major engines on that old sawbench!
Best
Adrian

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[AdrianNPMajor]

Meant to say 'Ransomes combine'.
A dealer near me bought up a lot of the stock from RSJ when they closed their old works in Ipswich. Think the flywheel was part of that job lot.
Best
Adrian

[oehrick]

2 points you dont want a solid drive and the need to step up the speed some thing iv seen is to drive with an ordinary ag pto shaft to a car wheel hub to which is attached an ag pto stub shaft which are readily available put a wheel and tire on it fixed against your pulley this gives an overdrive and you can very the grip with tire inflation pressure b

Thanks for that brockwood, I missed noting that there would be a u/j with soft coupling at either end and had wondered if some sort of slip joint or shearpin ought to be incorporated as a 'fuse' for nip-ups, but a friction drive with a rubber tyre is not something I'd considered, have used these against f/w rims for turning over stationary steam engines for demo at low speed but not this sort of job

[oehrick]

Thats a nicely put together bench Adrian and whilst a bit smaller and a lot lighter than the one I've got, is set up more or less how I started out (and if the shaft drive from side pulley idea doesn't work out, probably where I'll end up - although the tyre friction drive above is an interesting idea!) how do you get on with longer cross cuts like fenceposts and the dust and debris?

The other idea was to make up a bench mounted vertical chainsaw bar & blade just for firewood and mount both that and a log splitter on the 3PL and leave the circular saw for other work - for which, what I'd really love is one of these American benches:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8nyrP8bclI

So much more versatile than a rackbench and given the way it makes the pair of Baker uniflows bark, possibly a shade heavy for a poor old Major but think of all the cheap 3x2's and siding Well a chap can dream....................

[AdrianNPMajor]

Hi Oehrick
Re length of wood, I have found that anything I can pick up and handle safely will go across the bench. The photo below shows that the limiting factor for how long a piece of wood I can cut is the distance between the bench and the tractor rear wheel. Double that distance for the overhang the other side of the blade and you've got a piece of wood that is pretty long, and certainly long enough for one man to handle. I tend to halve long bits and then do each half into firewood lengths. The sawdust collects harmlessly below the bench and comes in handy for soaking up any oil spillages or leaks, such the one from the bell housing split pin hole, because some idiot didn't install the crankshaft rope seal properly!

Love the video. I'm surprised by how much the bench makes the steam engine grunt. The Major doesn't even know it's got the bench attached when I saw wood, even with an oak log. Re chain saws, I find they're great for larger diameter wood, and for cording the wood, but the sawbench is the master for anything up to about 8" - production is much quicker.
Best
Adrian

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[oehrick]

Hi Adrian

Thanks for the feedback, I'd not considered the fact that once excavated, my bench will probably stand a foot higher than its current part buried table height which improves long stick access.

That video would make a nice desktop, not sure if you'd twigged that Frick bench was being driven by TWO of those Baker engines, facing each other and belted to the same wide input pulley, that Walnut is dense stuff - I love the pneumatic clamps and hydraulic log turner they have devised, no need for laser measuring and PLC control when you have a sawyer who knows his job like that.

Also looking at making up a block to fit beside the 3PL valve to give live oil pressure for a splitter cylinder without the lift arms having St Vitus Dance - did briefly consider an hydraulic motor for the bench but I can't see the flow being anywhere near enough do do any good - return oil by filler as seems usual
While I'm not intending to do a restoration on the Major as such I would like to improve some of the less desirable effects of wear, tear and indifferent maintenance like the rear end leaks - sorry to hear about you losses at the crankshaft.

And of course all to be accomplished invisibly, at no cost traceable by the domestic authorities.........

Cheers & Beers

[AdrianNPMajor]

No, I hadn't twigged that both engines were driving the bench. Never encountered walnut wood, but as a very slow growing tree I can imagine it's very hard. Still surprised to see such monster machines having to clear their throats though!
Do you ever venture south of the border into Suffolk? Henham Steam fair is well worth a visit. The two images below were taken in 2011. The fair takes place in September on a Saturday and Sunday. Not just steam, but tractors, vintage cars, lorries, etc. Plenty to see.
Best
Adrian

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[oehrick]

Used to go to Henham most every year until the 'wilderness years' when it was held elsewhere, hasn't felt quite the same since then and while still a good rally I've got out of the habit I guess. There are a few of these big horizontal reciprocating saws doing the rounds, (he looks to have a set or guide problem by the drunken cuts) there were a couple in John Golden's woodyard at Northrepps until the sale, not sure where they ended up....... Gunton Park up near Cromer has a very early waterwheel driven multibladed vertical saw with a carriage for the stick, run some Sundays during the Summer (when enough water) and well worth a look.

Another video of the Amish outfit at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9qS8GUdL4Q the exhaust coming out in square lumps does the same to the hairs down my back as a Merlin (or four) at full chat.

Outsize bandsawing here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aETnYQwYhOE or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVJ1UarRhEU you can also play count how many scrap forklifts this good ole boy used to build it

And some really evocotive stuff in the series about this steam saw mill and box factory by this chap http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mKSKZau9qs

Some of the archive film of them felling , moving by steam donkey, loading on rail or rafting then sawing / planing / grading timber from 1st cut N American forests puts our sort of wood cutting firmly in its place

Youtube & Internet forums, the curse of the ought to be up the shed classes - have a good weekend

Being new to the forum I hope someone will prompt if / when this is considered too far off topic or needs to go onto other pages before I upset anyone

[chriss]

Thats a nicely put together bench Adrian and whilst a bit smaller and a lot lighter than the one I've got, is set up more or less how I started out (and if the shaft drive from side pulley idea doesn't work out, probably where I'll end up - although the tyre friction drive above is an interesting idea!) how do you get on with longer cross cuts like fenceposts and the dust and debris?

The other idea was to make up a bench mounted vertical chainsaw bar & blade just for firewood and mount both that and a log splitter on the 3PL and leave the circular saw for other work - for which, what I'd really love is one of these American benches:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8nyrP8bclI

So much more versatile than a rackbench and given the way it makes the pair of Baker uniflows bark, possibly a shade heavy for a poor old Major but think of all the cheap 3x2's and siding Well a chap can dream....................

thought this might be of interest[img][[IMG]http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a571/chriss1959/offsetsawbench001_zps027bf7d3.jpg[/img]/img]

[oehrick]

Thanks Chris

That angled drive is a neat idea. I couldn't quite make out if it travels in that position or not ?

My bench is a bit bigger than the one you show on the Fordson with less 'air' in the sides and comprises several bolted together castings which I am hoping not to damage by mounting on the TPL and, in part, by drilling more holes for that and a step up pulley layshaft, hence exploring the side drive idea.

I must see what I need to do to post some pics, photobucket seemed reluctant to accept that I'm content using less than state of the art software

You look to have some nice covered space to use

[AdrianNPMajor]

Hi Chris
The photo of your Major driving the saw bench with the flat belt is a real picture. I'd love to stand in the wings and watch you operate this great set-up. I can see from your other photos that the machinery is part of your life and not just bygone curiosities. That's what I love about the Major (the Fergie too). Old technology that has passed the hardest test of all - time.
Best
Adrian

[chriss]

thanks Adrian, must admit I do like the flat belt saws but the red one is now in Ireland I do have another but there's no guards on it so I got the offset one out on the fergie it cuts very well even to the full depth of the blade as for the tractors it's a bit addictive, just got another 55 major more my dads idea even though he's 81 in march and lives 100 miles away

[AdrianNPMajor]

Know what you mean by tractors being addictive. They're just too useful! Are you going to renovate the new acquisition? You made a lovely job of your first Major.
Best
Adrian

[oehrick]

Adrian & Chris

My neighbour has one of those open cart lodges and the open braces just give the right period feel to the photos

Another of my interests is the torturing of others ears by the semi controlled agitation of hardened steel strip using low pressure air, generated by bellows and distributed by button activated valves, competent practitioners of the art are known as Melodeon players, however, I know my place

On a forum dedicated to this strange activity, the collection of ever increasing numbers of these wheeze boxes by members has now been medically identified as 'Melodeon Acquisition Disorder' or MAD

It has become clear that a similar affliction is rampant amongst members of this forum so should any of us need to seek medical help, those accumulating Majors might possibly be mis diagnosed if using the acronym MAD instead of the full 'Major Aquisition Disorder', unfortunate, as others will have little problem such as DAD for the Dexta hoarders (although if not spelled out it might be confused with DDDAD for multiple Doe owners)

Sorry couldn't resist it

I do also have a hedgerow condition TVO Nufield M4 but have realised that the Major is enough and am looking to find a home in preservation rather than that great parts heap in the sky for it so while there may be any number of reasons why I might reasonably be expected to stand amongst fellow sufferers and declare I am MAD, accumulation of tractors will not be one of them

[chriss]

Know what you mean by tractors being addictive. They're just too useful! Are you going to renovate the new acquisition? You made a lovely job of your first Major.
Best
Adrian

that's the plan hopefully pick up the roofing sheets Friday put them on Saturday then it can go under cover, then several trips to malchome hipperson's

[AdrianNPMajor]

I'm envious. I was MAD once but I'm down to just one now. Would love to get my spanners out again. Have fun!
Best
Adrian

[R W]

[quote="oehrick"]Thats a nicely put together bench Adrian (and if the shaft drive from side pulley idea doesn't work out, p.[/quote]
Have to agree, it is nicely put together. Other than that I would have to say it is not the safest set up I've seen , The main danger being the retrieval of the cut log/block, as it cannot fall
away from the bench without hitting something or possible jamming up somehow. If I were to use a 3pl, pto drive a right angle box would incorporated so as to have the blade at 90 degrees to the
tractor, giving good access to both sides of the saw. From experience the bench only needs to protrude about 6" from the blade on the block side, this allows blocks to fall away easily or to be taken by a second person.
Re: Side Pulley Drive. (oehrick)
You should have little trouble driving a bench from the side pulley. Drove a stationary bench this way for years using a flat belt (there were
no problems).

[brockwood]

i have to say i tend to agree with rw all the benchs i see in the uk trator mags give me the screaming jim jams the normal bench for fire wood here has a sliding mine or hinging top that cradles the timber and only exposes the blade[ 2 foot 6 in my case] when your cutting and has a spring return u stand to one side not in line with the blade and index it throu either let it drop of or have someone throw in a pile mine is self contained peg it down and drive it with a belt usely cutting 6 foot lengh limbs or what ever i can lift up to 1 1/2 foot diameter of cause where cuting hardwood but that shouldnt make any difrence had it for 40 years driven it with any thing from mg 5 /landrover currently e27 halftrack b

[AdrianNPMajor]

Hi RW
You make fair points. When the bench reached its current level of construction I tried it out and it worked very well, so well that I continued using it without getting round to making and attaching a guard for the pto area. An old man many years ago gave me a piece of wisdom (not a propos this saw) that I have never forgotten: "what can't happen won't happen." The lack of guard on my bench breaks this rule. Having said that, I have cut countless tons of firewood using the bench, and the method I use means that cut wood never gets as far as the pulley or the pto area, and the piece of wood being cut is always in my grasp. Nevertheless, a guard is a sensible precaution, and your advice is well taken.

My dad taught me to respect all machinery. You're in trouble if you don't. The saw bench demands and gets your respect as soon as you engage the PTO. When I drop the bench to go to work, it is always on level ground with no obstructions or tripping hazards within range. When presenting wood, my hands never enter the zone in line with the blade; they are always either side of the blade grasping the piece of wood being sawn. When the cut is made, my hands withdraw straight back, again never crossing the line of the blade. My cut wood pile is always behind and to one side of me so that I am never tempted to reach across the line of the blade. I fastidiously keep any sawn wood or any other obstructions clear of the area where I have to stand. When I present a log to be sawn, I lean back with my body weight, not forwards, whilst using my arms to push the wood against the blade. By leaning my body backwards, if I were to slip, I would fall to safety.

Having said all of the above, the saw bench is dangerous machine, a fact that I never, ever forget.
Best
Adrian