posted January 10, 2006 13:52               

I’ve tried that but couldn’t get a big enough screwdriver in there because of the blade and backhoes big under frame. So about 3 days ago I took out the injectors, (which were caked with thick carbon-scrapped it off with razor knife blade and soaked them in injector cleaner- don’t know if they are blocked though) and since then I have been pouring diesel and WD40 into the injector wells in an effort to free the engine up.

Today I took the starter motor off, loosened off all the belts and was able to turn the flywheel about 2 complete revolutions from the bottom up (Is this the way the engine turns normally?) by using a big pinch bar towards the back of the ring gear teeth.

Brian my question now is how easy should I be able to turn the engine on the flywheel (starter ring)before we would call it free, considering that there are no belts or injectors and I presume no compression (Is that right?). Mine is tight even with a big pinch bar (the engine that is ). I put the starter motor back on but was unable to get the starter to move the engine. That’s what leads me to believe that the “tack” noise coming from the starter is the starter engaging the ring gear but not being able to turn the engine. Maybe it’s not engaging it at all – who knows? (But there is that ever so minute movement of the bottom pulley (fan blade).

Eventually I will take the head off and see if it needs a rebuild (heaps of questions to come ) or just a good hone and clean up, but for now I would like to get the old girl started so I can see what needs doing to the hydraulics.

Eagerly awaiting all responses and kind regard………..Dom (Mick)

P.S. Tomorrow I will try GT’s top idea from another post of bypassing the relay and see if that helps.

P.P.S. Tried that- the starter spins freely on its own but when I push starter lever down and try it won't move engine.

[This message has been edited by Dom (edited January 10, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by Dom (edited January 11, 2006).]

posted January 11, 2006 09:09               

Think I would also put a small amount of Automatic Transmission Fluid down through the injector holes, turn her over and then leave it to soak for a while. This will help to free up any stuck rings. Squirt a bit on the valve too.

posted January 11, 2006 09:34               

Been waiting for your reply all day (do you mind giving up sleeping so we can get our replies faster ) I’ll use a little Automatic Transmission Fluid but I don't know of anyone with a Fordson or starter but I guess I could get it rebuilt if need be.

posted January 11, 2006 17:43               

Sorry I missed your earlier mail as well as the time difference. I usually sit here between 6 am and 8.30am whilst having breakfast and doing my tests. Then again at 4.30pm to 5 pm in the afternoon. . Usually the all-nighters are reserved for trying to invent new circuits for things like the Mobile De-Icer Sprayer for Jersey Airport.

You could be really cruel and couple the starter up to 24V. I have done this in the past in similar circumstances. You are only using the starter so you won't blow the dynamo or regulator. But you can throw a lot of sparks about if you get the wires wrong. 24V always seems more powerful than 12V. I once blew up a pair of good wire cutters when working on a self propeled beet harvester.

------------------
Kind regards
Brian

posted January 12, 2006 08:46               

As Mr. Punch says "That's the way to do it".
Another thought about hard turning might be the hydraulic pump if it drives from the front pulley or any other place direct from the engine.

posted January 12, 2006 11:26               

Of course it does (why didn't I think of that I've been looking at it long enough). It drives directly off the front and by the look of it, it would be in constant drive when the engine is running.

Hopefully I will have a bit of time tomorrow to try out these last few thoughts.

Thanks again mate, regards.............Dom

posted January 12, 2006 12:07               

Before you take the engine apart, try this...
Bye some ordinary coka cola and just pour it in to the cyl, trough the hole there the injectors should be. Then wait for 3-4 days and then it should be free.
We have tryid wd40 and crc5-56 to our motocross biks (on the waterpump)and only coke could help us to free those tiny nuts.

I have self a Weatherill loading shovel and the engine was stuck there to.
I tryed the "oil way" for about 2 weeks before it helped. I also took the head off and heated the cylinders up to help the oil to penetrate. I just say- i should have shosen the Coke.
Later had i some problem with a Fordson Major -52 (kerosene) and there i took coke first. 2 days later and then it was free.

The engine should move qiute easy without any compession.
While you testing to use your starter, i recomend that you bypass the relay or it will take harm. Note that a ordinary car
battery isn`t enough.

posted January 12, 2006 12:45               

I'll try the 24 volts direct to the starter first, if that fails I'll disconnect the hydraulic pump at the front and give it another go. If all that fails its party time - coka cola in the engine - rum in me for a couple of days. That should free things up

Kindest Regards..... Dom

posted January 12, 2006 19:49               

------------------
Kind regards
Brian

posted January 14, 2006 10:44               

Let you know how I go

posted January 14, 2006 12:14               

Would just like to say:
Bottom up!

I hope that will help you to break it free.
I really hope that your engine dont have any other faults..
Have you checked the oil? No metal fragments and so?

posted January 14, 2006 12:41               

I was thinking when I pulled the sump plug out why it isn't magnetized so that any metal in the sump would stick to it and would be noticed and removed.

posted January 16, 2006 01:41               

My question is can the engine be removed without doing that. Can I just remove front cowling, radiator etc. as pulling the front axle and all is not an option with the front blade and under frame.

Regards........ Dom

posted January 16, 2006 09:06               

The other way would be to leave the axle in position and move the rest of the tractor backwards away from it but this would be a problem also.

Were you ever any good at Chinese Wire Puzzles?

With a second look, if you can get the block clear, the engine mountings at the front will slide along the channels until they reach the end, then it would be a straight lift up. You would need a good crane/loader with a lot of free lift.
------------------
Kind regards
Brian

posted January 21, 2006 13:07               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dom:

Hi all again,

Here is the progress so far and some questions.

After trying everything previously mentioned in this post to further free the engine and now doing my best to avoid lifting it out I finally had no choice but to pulled the head off.

I tried to loosen any stuck rings by rocking the pistons back and forward and side to side (is that what you do, it made sense to me?) as well as honing the cylinders out.

Not too shabby a job I think.

The engine now is slightly easier to turn on the ring gear but still need the long pinch bar as a big screwdriver still too hard. I also noticed that the engine is noticeably harder to turn when the pistons are all lined up about halfway down the cylinders and I wouldn't think this is normal. May be some of you guys have an opinion on that?

This stiffness plus the fact that No.4 piston was put in the wrong way by some previous butcher, before being corrected (as evident by the indentations left by the valves on top of piston) leads me to believe that there may be something more sinister wrong with this engine in the rings or bottom end but having no previous mechanical experience am not sure. What are the opinions?

The engine does turn all be it tight, is that the way it should be?

I put the starter motor back on and tried turning it over with only 1mm movement with every hit but I would agree with Brian that the starter is probably not up to scratch and that will be my next move to fix this starter or get another one before trying again.

I need and value everyone’s 2c worth.

Thanks and Kind Regards........Dom

---

posted January 21, 2006 20:00               

If you have one piston in backwards your tightness could be due to the rod being turned on the journal. (Numbers away from the cam). This can cause the problem. The connecting rod itself could also be bent if it has been hitting the valves.

Think it best to drop the sump and do a thorough check now.

If the rings are stuck, it will be best to remove the pistons and free them off.

posted January 22, 2006 01:01               

Sorry mate I didn't make myself clear, the piston had at some stage been put in the wrong way but is in correctly now and the engine has definitely been running for some time since then as evident by the build up of carbon on the injectors and pistons.

Dropping the sump is unfortunately not an option on this old girl, I would have to pull the entire engine out (again not an easy task with this machine) and that’s what I intend to do before the paint job, but before I go any further I need to kick her over to check how much work and what is needed on the hydraulics and to be able to move her.

Thanks again .......Dom

posted January 23, 2006 14:44            

Regards, Frank.

posted January 23, 2006 15:09               

It’s encouraging to know there is a reason for this resistance at mid stroke.

I'll try and find that article about the fire in the cylinder and if anyone has tried it or has an opinion on the idea please let us know.

Thanks again Frank

P.S. If anyone knows that post please let us know as I can't find it now but I am sure I have read it before.

posted January 24, 2006 22:14               

The big trick is Coca Cola, or something comparable, thatl solves rust.

But when a diesel is stuck and you want her getting healty again, the best thing will be a little rebuilding I think.

posted January 24, 2006 22:54               

Heating up the oil first sounds like a better idea than a fire in the cylinder and will have the same result if any, so I will give it a go, got nothing to lose I guess and I'm already making plans to pull the engine out.

Keep you posted of progress and thanks again.

Kind Regards.......Dom

posted February 16, 2006 13:43               

Not much progress been a bit snowed under at the moment, but I've had an auto electrician look at the starter, he seems to think that’s alright (don't really know how much testing he done on it though). Got a new 720 CCA battery and tried to start it but no movement so the next step is to either try and drop the sump to remove pistons or yank out the donk altogether. That unfortunately will have to wait a month or so.

As to your other question, this is a purpose built backhoe and the back does not come off, got another tractor for the implements.

I've toured most of the eastern states but I'm definitely going to get to WA one day.

Kind Regards......Dom

posted February 26, 2006 20:25               

Regards
Mac

posted February 27, 2006 00:46               

Yes mate I've tried the ins and outs of a fish’s backside, CLR, coke, penetrating oil, brake fluid, 24 volts, etc, etc, etc.

It did at some stage get to where with a lot of effort I could turn the engine with a long pinch bar from the ring gear, but at no stage did it look like it would turn on the starter motor. In fact the CLR was left overnight and I believe in my case it done more harm than good as I think it started to eat into the sleeves and the rings went tight on the pistons again.

As a last resort I'm going to heat up the pots by lighting a little fuel in them but I’m afraid I will need to pull this one apart soon (Looking forward to it actually )

Kind Regards............Dom

posted February 27, 2006 19:13               

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dom:
[b]Hi Mac

Yes mate I've tried the ins and outs of a fish’s backside, CLR, coke, penetrating oil, brake fluid, 24 volts, etc, etc, etc.

It did at some stage get to where with a lot of effort I could turn the engine with a long pinch bar from the ring gear, but at no stage did it look like it would turn on the starter motor. In fact the CLR was left overnight and I believe in my case it done more harm than good as I think it started to eat into the sleeves and the rings went tight on the pistons again.

As a last resort I'm going to heat up the pots by lighting a little fuel in them but I’m afraid I will need to pull this one apart soon (Looking forward to it actually )

Kind Regards............Dom

posted February 28, 2006 09:19               

I'll let you know what I find.

posted June 20, 2006 16:44               

Anyway I finally was able to set aside a couple of days to work on the motor and decided the cheapest & easiest option was what Brian had suggested back in January 21st and that was to drop the sump and remove the pistons. (Almost an impossible task on this monster with limited equipment but where these a will these a way)

Now to cut a long story short, lets say I can clean up the pistons, put in new rings and hone out the cylinder linings as they are all in reasonable condition.


The big problem now is the bottom end. This was really butchered by the previous guy and is a total mess. 2 bearings seem to have come through the ordeal ok but number 2 cylinder bearing and crank is rough and number 4 bearing seems to have spun to the point of fusing some of the white bearing metal onto the crank.
The back of the bearings have the numbers .030 stamped on the back. Does this stand for .030 undersize and is that limit?
If that is the case dose that also mean that the crank cannot be machined any further as you could not buy bearings to suit?
Unfortunately my intention was to just start her up and check what condition the backhoe, front hydraulics and clutch were in I'm not sure how much further to go with her.
One last question for now. Obviously the crank can now be turned freely on the ring gear with the pistons removed. If I was to put the tractor in gear as it sits there, should the clutch pose some sort of resistance when trying to turn the ring gear as a guide to the condition of the clutch or am I just playing with myself?

Love the site....regards....Dom

[This message has been edited by Dom (edited June 20, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by Dom (edited June 20, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by Dom (edited June 20, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by Dom (edited June 20, 2006).]
Sorry for all the edits-could'nt get a photo to work

posted June 20, 2006 18:50               

If your going that far in you will be able to do a visual on the clutch. If you put it in gear and the crank stops turning, it means that something is working but can you generate 50hp with your screwdriver? If you put your foot on the clutch and can then turn it, you know the realese is working but thats all. I would budget for a new clutch and thrust bearing, you won't want all that work a second time.

Do you know if the digger worked before it was parked? It would be a bummer if you got the motor running to find the rest was U/S.

What's the chance of getting another engine out there? Remember that a new crank and bearings is not too expensive. I would add an oil pump to the shopping list too.

posted June 21, 2006 03:52               

This is the dilemma now. According to the previous owner it was all working prior to it sitting for 4 years, all be it with a few leaks, but by looking at this crank who knows. I know these things are tough but do you think the engine would even start up in this state?

I guesstimate it's probably between $A1500.00 & $A2000.00 to get the engine running with kits, clutches, pumps, oils etc, etc and that’s only to find out if the rest is ok.

I'am really in two minds on whether to scrap this one, economics tells me scrap it , heart tells me not to let it die.

Kind Regards .....Dom

posted June 21, 2006 09:31               

Its not my money but at the price you are saying to overhaul it could be worth it. Your talking around £1500.00 British. Depending on what you paid for it, if it were mine, I would give it a go. But there again I'm silly that way!

Nuffy cost me about £900.00 to put new liners, bearings and valves in this year. But she now runs like the preverbial clock and pulls better than she ever did.

posted June 24, 2006 13:03               

Had a cleanup and closer look at the pistons and conrods this afternoon.
It looks like at least 2 of these conrods are off a different engine(s) as the numbers stamped on the side are

1.EIADDN-6205B SDF478 DIESEL

2.EIADDN-6205B SDF291 DIESEL

3.EIADDN-6205B SDF H85 DIESEL (or something that looks like a H)

4.EIADDN-6205B DIESEL 15748A2JGSB

I assume that the EIADDN-6205B is the bit that means they all fit this engine.

Number 3 piston (or conrod) must, at some time, been a Number 4 piston in some other engine as it had 4 dots on the conrod and bearing cap (I think that’s what you call it) before it was over stamped with the number 3 and was put into this engine.

Now as the parts where already stamped I didn't take much notice of how the go back together but seem to fit best as per the photo

Is this correct, as 1,2 & 3 seem to fit snugly like this? (snugly what a cute little description)

Number 4 however is another story. This is the one that was put in arse about and then turned when they realised that the top of the piston was smashing into the valves. The only problem is that they didn't also turn the bearing cap and now seems to be slightly out of shape.

When I try to fit this cap and conrod together the bolts are a very tight fit (need to be tapped in with some force) and when the nuts are tightened there is a .006 ridge on the inside edge of the cap. Assuming I manage to get the bolts in if I try and put this engine back together is this .006 ridge going to be a concern or will the bearing allow for this or do I need another conrod and cap?

Regards......Dom

posted June 24, 2006 21:45               

Sounds like she was an ASP Major. As far as the con rods go your picture shows the correct way round with the notches at the same end. This should give you the numbers together. Ford would not have used a dot punch to mark them so it sounds like someone has fitted another rod there. Numbers do not really matter as long as the cap and rod are a matched pair. You can't go moving the caps around and certainly not the main bearing caps on the engine so I hope you marked them correctly.

When you reassemble the engine, Numbers go to the camshaft so make sure you get the pistons on the rods the correct way round.

The odd rod sounds a bit ominous. Sounds as if someone has fitted a rod with another cap which is not good. I think I would be inclined to get another rod/cap. There is no way the bearings can make up the difference you give. Watch out for the different sized gudgeon pin and little end on the earlier tractors.

The part numbers on the rods don't mean anything. The part numbers are E1ADDN-6200-B before 1957 and E1ADDN-6200-C after 1957.

------------------
Kind regards
Brian

posted June 29, 2006 17:23               

When you say, "Watch out for the different sized gudgeon pin and little end on the earlier tractors" do you mean the "
E1ADDN-6200-B before 1957" con rods would have a different size gudgeon pin and little end bearing to the standard pin and bearing you would normally find in a 63 super major or do you mean much earlier models?

As you know the con rods in this motor are all have a "B" casting and I would assume I would have to get a "B" as a replacement for the 4th one in order to keep it uniform and hopefully I will then be able to get some sort of standard engine kit to suit this bitza.

I pulled the engine out today and have a question regarding the clutch. All the spare parts suppliers have images of clutches plates with grooves on them as per the picture below

And as you can see my 13" plate doesn’t.

Now dose this mean it is warn out or as you have mention in another post, "as long as the rivet heads are 1/8" to 1/16" below the surface of the disc" it will be ok? This beast, all going well, will be used on my hobby farm and although it will only be used occasionally it's a tough one to crack open just to replace a warn clutch.

Also is there any way of knowing if the cover assembly, thrust bearing and pilot bearing are ok?

posted June 29, 2006 21:07               

Seriously though your disc would have looked like the one in the picture when new. Whenever I fit a clutch I always replace thrust and pilot bearings. I have seen it so many times when these are left to save money, the thrust tends to sieze and take out the pressure plate. I had a similar thing happen to Nuffy. It was clear that the previous owner had replaced the clutc and not the bearings. I noted a schreech when I was hedge cutting and ended up taking the clutch apart to replace a seized thrust bearing. Luckily it runs on a plate rather than fingers and this cleaned up OK.